If I apply two simple "principals", the issue gets easier for me to comment on:
1 - Everyone here has an earnest desire to be helpful.
2 - Everyone here really likes being a part of this community and Hubitat.
That said, as I've read a few of the more incendiary threads, it seems to be that some of it comes down to interpretation.
Person A will say it "can't" be done and be correct from a technical point of view. The person on the receiving end of it may not understand that or the reasons why it "can't" and be suitably offended.
Other times someone who is trying to help will end up saying "I can't help you" and that can be taken the wrong way. It's true in the "technical sense" but that doesn't mean in is received in the most congenial way.
There are many different cultures, languages and biases on this site and it's not always the sender's fault if something is misperceived. That doesn't release the sender from trying their best to come across in the most polite way possible. When I try and help, I always approach it from a place where the person(s) can misinterpret what I'm saying and then edit to a place where there's a minimal chance of that.
I think it will come as no shock to anyone that i disagree. I hope you'll do me the courtesy of actually reading the whole response before assuming what it says.
This thread perfectly demonstrates why I disagree with your premise....
Not all questions are created equally and not all questions SHOULD be answered. If someone is asking how to do something that will negatively impact their system in a way that they have not considered, you do that person a disservice by answering their question. Furthermore, if you know that it will negatively impact their system and you don't point that out, you have done harm to that person by your inaction.
Seinfeld fans know what I'm talking about.....criminal indifference. While that was taken to a comedic extreme, the principal is still applicable. If someone is asking a question similar to the one linked above, what should someone reading it do in that case? Let them learn it on their own? In that specific case, I was not the first to read it, nor was I the first to respond, both of which scared me. All of these people could read that post and not point out the danger? What if someone had gotten injured because the guy installed a smartswitch on a garbage disposal? And I'd done nothing to prevent it? While obviously not legally culpable, I would have held myself morally culpable for not doing what little I could to try and prevent it.
Personally, if I'm trying to do something that isn't going to work or there's a much easier way to do it, PLEASE tell me. I like avoiding unnecessary work and headaches.
By saying that something is a bad idea, you're not calling the person who came up with it "stupid" or insulting them. Brilliant people come up with amazing craptastic ideas all the time! That doesn't make them any less brilliant. Or mean that the other 10 ideas they came up with today aren't great. It just means that this particular idea is bad. In other words, someone saying "That's not a good idea" should not be equated with "You're stupid."
IMHO, people need to take things a little less personal. If someone is taking the time to point out that what you want to do isn't going to work the way you hope/think it is, rather than just assume they're doing it for nefarious reasons, why not assume that they're doing it to help you? You can only hear what someone says through the veil of your own prejudices. If you assume someone is saying something for a particular reason, I guarantee, you'll find evidence to justify it. Rather than jump up and down on that person, why not give them the benefit of the doubt?
I wouldn't disagree with you on the taking it personal. I do think it works both ways though. If the people receiving the advice "need to take things a little less personal" then the person sending it can do their best to not be "taken personal."
I do disagree with the approach about not answering a question. There's no reason not to answer a question that I can think of. It's in the "how" that it's answered. If someone is going to do something that will negatively impact their system, then maybe they are ignorant and need help. Maybe they are okay with the risk to their system as part of a learning process. Who knows. If the person asking the question isn't responding in the manner the person answering "thinks" they should, then that's on the answering person's shoulders. I can't see a reason to be rude or condescending when there's a conflict there.
I wouldn't disagree with that. I would say that instead of belittling that person saying something to that person at the time would be more appropriate. Also, maybe consider why they might be coming across that way. Sometimes we assume that people are just like us. It's natural for people to do so. And if you're "normal" then that assumption could be incorrect. There are reasons other than being a jerk that people have very little "tact" or perception of why their actions or what they say come across as offensive or rude. And not all of those reasons are 100% in their control. We need to take the time to consider that as well.
And, once you know someone's intentions (maybe by asking them) don't expect them to be able to change as quickly as you might like. If you've determined that they motives are good, cutting them some slack will not only encourage them but also show others that their motives are good.
In the end, differing opinions is also not a bad a thing. We aren't all the same. And this forum is not only to get your questions answered but is also hopefully a reference for the next guy. So, while you might not agree with someone's opinion, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't post it. If you don't like it, that doesn't mean they don't have the right to post it. It's not just for you. It's for everyone.
Because overwhelming the topics posted here isn't about anything dangerous or anything related to being dangerous. A lot of times it is cause Person B just wants to give their OPINION.
Something being a BAD idea is an opinion. Something being dangerous is another thing entirely.
Maybe Person B thinks it is a BAD idea to go to the hardware store. However, there is no harm in giving them the directions. Maybe this person would enjoy getting out of the house. Maybe there was a delivery and now widgets are in stock. Person B doesn't know Person A's situation. Providing an opinion on why ordering from Amazon would be better is NOT helpful. Maybe Person A wants to support local business. There are just too many assumptions being made by Person B to assume ordering from Amazon is better.
Person C is helpful and provides the directions even though explaining the problem. Person B's opinion just amounts to noise in the thread about directions.
Right well if there is no hardware store in the first place to even drive too that is a problem!
Person C: There is no hardware store within a 500 miles radius of you. I suggest ordering from Amazon.
But I am curious about the quotes around can't. Many times I see things can be done but not ideal. For example repeating light bulbs causing problems.
Why is that bad? I thought this forum was for everyone. Only certain people are allow to give their opinions or provide alternate solutions? Here's a post from @april.brandt where someone was asking about Lutron RadioRA wall keypads. She posted about a device which you attach to your computer.
That was completely off topic. Did it answer the OPs question? Absolutely not. Was it wrong of her to post that? Absolutely not. She has every right to post something that she thinks could help someone or that she wants to bring up. Just because it doesn't answer the OPs question, doesn't make it wrong or "noise", as you call it. It's a forum...stop judging people so much.
(P.S. April, I saw those things a while ago too and had the same thought...so cool!! I just don't have the patience to try figure out how to get them to work. )
No, sometimes Person B KNOWS it's not a good idea to go to the hardware store. That is my whole point. Person A has not considered something that Person B has. It is not always an opinion. But even if it is, you can choose to take that advice or not. Why shouldn't person B post it? Maybe you don't agree but the next person that comes along might.
And that is your opinion. You seem to think that the whole point of this forum is to help you. This forum is also a resource for others reading these posts later.
This is my whole point. Person B might have some information that Person A does not. And rather than spend 2 hours typing out a dissertation with footnotes and annotations, they just say so.
What has become completely clear to me is that I might have totally misunderstood the purpose of this forum. Is it intended to be an echo chamber where everyone is told their ideas are great and get reinforcement for one's fragile ego? Or is it a place for people to discuss things related to Hubitat and home automation? To even, I know this word scares people nowadays, DISAGREE about things?
Disagreements are not in and of themselves bad things. Can you imagine how boring life would be if we all agreed with each other? Yuck!
And you're assuming that people are being disrespectful because of the tone you perceive or the motivation that you are assigning to their posts? I'll refer you to my earlier post in this thread for that topic.
Here is a great example of what I believe @helene7t7 is referring to. A new user in the "Get Started" part of the forum, posts this thread: Static IPs
They have a fairly straightforward question, they posted it in the "Get Started" section of this forum and the thread ends up being a conversation between highly technical members about setting static IP's (using things like a pi instead of your router to set static IP's). I imagine the OP may be looking at all this in possible bewilderment, nobody is bothering to ask him if his problem is solved. I post this:
And the reply is this:
Sorry for trying to get the thread back to what the OP asked (in hours, not days since the OP asked the question). I didn't mean to interrupt the highly technical conversation going on between other users in the section of the forum labelled "Get Started".
Because several people in the thread had asked the OP questions and there was no response. So, what difference does it make where the conversation goes? You're assuming that the person is reading it. Well, if he/she had, why didn't he/she answer the questions we'd asking him/her?
What difference does it make to you where the conversation goes? Are you getting charged per post you read? No.
Thread devolving....just point it out....not pointing fingers. Remember the point of this thread is in the title. Let's not....oh nevermind...we are already in the Debate Chamber...resume your ramblings.
As a member of the Comment Reading Association (CRA), I’m only here to read comments. Please keep the comments short, simple and respectful. We do appreciate your typing effort. Also please watch your spelling. Thank you and have a great day!
How are you to able to determine "what" negative impacts someone has or has not considered? Magic 8 ball?
To the contrary, you do the harm by pointing it out as there is absolutely no way for you to assume to know what impacts the poster has/has not considered. Case in point "You" believe everything must be done according to government "code"......I do not, as well as those like myself don't appreciate you imposing "your view" upon us.
Yes, that is how humans learn, the vast majority of people involved in this home automation pursue many hundreds of trial and errors that don't ever get asked for advice on and yet they "learn" from their mistakes what works and what does not.
Leave your morals to your own household and belief, and only address the topic asked, no one asked for how you feel about what they are asking, adding it only creates the frustration as they do not require your justification for their task.
If they are trying to do something that won't work, I'm going to assume they just haven't realized it rather than assume they're trying to do something that won't work, yes. Why would you do something you know won't work? That makes no sense.
Noted. If I'm every walking toward a giant hole in the ground, please warn me. I don't need to fall in a hole to learn what a hole is.
I thought the whole idea of the forum was for people to converse. Again, I ask, is that the reason it is here or is it only for CERTAIN people to express their opinions? If I see someone doing something I know isn't going to work and is going to cause them grief, I'm going to respond. If that's not what is acceptable here, I will gladly leave. But if that is how people should learn, then why is the forum here at all? If you're argument were true, no one should ever answer anyone's questions. Let them learn for themselves if that's what's best, right?
It's these kind of threads (or maybe only where they end up) why I stopped reading just about everything on this forum. And why I became more and more hesitant to reply to any thread actually.
IF EVERYBODY WANTS TO STOP THE DRAMA, we should not start a discussion every time we don't agree with somebody. Just let it be! Move on, accept that everybody is different and that we all have our own opinion, believe or whatever you want to call it.
You know. I could respond to you @Ryan780 but I just chose not to. I'm not into pointing out each individual situation. My post is intended as a reminder to think before you react. Then respond. The community is an amazing tool. Let's keep people coming back and not dreading people that like to argue. Plain and simple.
I hope you'll do me the courtesy of actually reading the whole response before assuming what it says.
While that was taken to a comedic extreme, the principal is still applicable. If someone is asking a question similar to the one linked above, what should someone reading it do in that case? Let them learn it on their own? In that specific case, I was not the first to read it, nor was I the first to respond, both of which scared me. All of these people could read that post and not point out the danger? What if someone had gotten injured because the guy installed a smartswitch on a garbage disposal? And I'd done nothing to prevent it? While obviously not legally culpable, I would have held myself morally culpable for not doing what little I could to try and prevent it.
how dare you
I'm literally out of breath from laughing.
