Groups and Scenes

[bravenel]

I know it's sort of frustrating. We've been round and round the mulberry bush on this, and where you end up if you think about it long enough, is that a restriction has to be enforced under all circumstances. There are other scenarios where the opposite use case as yours would fail were it to turn them off even when restricted.

If you're using motion for this, you might want to look at Motion Lighting. It cleanly separates the issues of turning on and turning off, for exactly the reason that a restriction fails in the case of a light turned on right before the restriction kicks in.

[ardjanbarnas]

Allowing restrictions on scenes makes things too complex and less abstract in my opinion.

A scene should just be that, a scene. It should simply be a configuration template to set a scenario. That way it keeps things simple. There are various other ways to restrict and activate a scene, like RM.

In my use case I would create a number of scenes: morning, daytime, evening, night, away, etc.
Then use a simple rule to activate the scene when the mode changes.

The only time I manually trigger a mode (which then triggers the scene) is for night and morning modes.

I have more complex rules that evaluate the time of day when the mode changes from Away to Home based on time of day mostly. Changing to the correct mode for that time of day will then automatically trigger the correct scene.

Many folks using this in different ways, but I can't imagine of a use case where the restriction is coupled to the scene configuration itself.

I'm just rambling

[ardjanbarnas]

I have a request.

Can scenes include the capability to set thermostats, doors, and locks? That way we can use simple rules to activate a more complete scene scenario. Right now we have to create Rule Machine logic to do this and from what I understand, Rule Machine is resource intensive?

[bravenel]

No, Rule Machine is not resource intensive.

Pushing more functionality into Scene would just muddy it up. What do doors, thermostats and locks have to do with lighting scenes? You can write a simple rule that is triggered by the Scene activation device to do things at the same time that a Scene is activated.

[ardjanbarnas]

I have set up Groups for various scenarios . Each group is only used to turn off devices and for each Location Mode there is a Scene. In the Scene I turn the Group to off.

It looks like switching a Group member device off, triggers an update of the status of the other groups (if the same device is in multiple groups). In this example, the logs below show the sequence when turning device Group "Goodnight" to off.

It took very long for all the devices to actually be turned off. The trigger was at 12:10:39.xxx and the group was finally turned off at 12:11:21 (about 40 seconds).

Do you have any suggestions how I can speed this process up?

---

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:21.349 am infoMode Night Group Off switch was turned off

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:20.623 am infoMode Night Group Off switch was turned off

dev:2952019-09-06 12:11:20.087 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:19.850 am infoMode Night Group Off switch was turned off

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:19.788 am infoMode Night Group Off switch was turned off

dev:2952019-09-06 12:11:19.515 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2872019-09-06 12:11:19.435 am infoMode Daytime Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:19.204 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:19.083 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:19.027 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:17.548 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:17.094 am infoMode Night Group Off switch was turned off

dev:2922019-09-06 12:11:16.589 am infoMode Evening Off Group switch was turned off

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:16.363 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:11:15.972 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:15.892 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:15.592 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:15.384 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:11:14.778 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:14.614 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:14.335 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:13.902 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:12.908 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:12.733 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:11:12.065 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2922019-09-06 12:11:11.711 am infoMode Evening Off Group switch is on

dev:2882019-09-06 12:11:11.459 am infoMode Morning Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:10.920 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:11:10.727 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:10.664 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:10.571 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:10.534 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:11:10.377 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:10.344 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:10.272 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:10.116 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2872019-09-06 12:11:09.871 am infoMode Daytime Off Group switch is on

dev:2922019-09-06 12:11:09.581 am infoMode Evening Off Group switch is on

dev:2882019-09-06 12:11:09.457 am infoMode Morning Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:09.140 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:11:08.314 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:08.271 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:11:07.968 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:07.924 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:07.780 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2872019-09-06 12:11:07.401 am infoMode Daytime Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:07.314 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2882019-09-06 12:11:07.273 am infoMode Morning Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:07.169 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:05.994 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2872019-09-06 12:11:05.962 am infoMode Daytime Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:05.792 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:05.739 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:11:05.256 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:05.216 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:05.013 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:04.835 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2882019-09-06 12:11:04.775 am infoMode Morning Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:04.190 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:03.968 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:03.918 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:02.190 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:11:02.044 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:11:01.832 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:01.792 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:01.247 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:11:01.131 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2872019-09-06 12:11:00.917 am infoMode Daytime Off Group switch is on

dev:2882019-09-06 12:11:00.834 am infoMode Morning Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:11:00.772 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2922019-09-06 12:11:00.520 am infoMode Evening Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:11:00.062 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:59.874 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:59.588 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:59.345 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:58.825 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:58.749 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:58.583 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:58.512 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2882019-09-06 12:10:58.405 am infoMode Morning Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:58.378 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:57.505 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:57.013 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:57.010 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:56.932 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:56.766 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:56.169 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:56.104 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:56.014 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:55.577 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:55.520 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:55.465 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:54.761 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:53.939 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:53.794 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:53.476 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:53.230 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:53.087 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:52.796 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:52.232 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:52.226 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2872019-09-06 12:10:51.987 am infoMode Daytime Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:51.049 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:50.941 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2882019-09-06 12:10:50.517 am infoMode Morning Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:50.420 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:50.375 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:50.227 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:49.951 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:49.945 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:49.852 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:49.815 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:49.178 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:49.025 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:48.704 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:47.419 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:47.074 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:46.439 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:46.269 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:45.968 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:45.748 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:45.396 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:45.314 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:45.238 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:45.151 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2872019-09-06 12:10:45.121 am infoMode Daytime Off Group switch is on

dev:2882019-09-06 12:10:44.595 am infoMode Morning Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:42.919 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2882019-09-06 12:10:42.723 am infoMode Morning Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:42.695 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:42.668 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:42.601 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:41.595 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:41.554 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:41.526 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:41.484 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:40.696 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:40.649 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:40.509 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

dev:2962019-09-06 12:10:40.387 am infoMode Away Off Group switch is on

dev:2872019-09-06 12:10:39.517 am infoMode Daytime Off Group switch is on

dev:2572019-09-06 12:10:39.424 am infoMode Night Group Off switch is on

dev:2952019-09-06 12:10:39.374 am infoMode KidsAreUp Off Group switch is on

dev:2942019-09-06 12:10:39.331 am infoMode Midnight Off Group switch is on

[bravenel]

It's very hard to read logs that are copy/pasted. Could you repost those as a screenshot please.

[ardjanbarnas]

Sorry, the logs are no longer on the hub for this event. I decided to reboot the router, since I had quite a few browser windows open to set up rules and scenes. I rebooted once I was done, and it has helped with the speed. Looks like things are back to normal now.

[ardjanbarnas]

That's too bad. It would be nice to be able to use groups and scenes as more than "lightning scenes".

For example a mood scene, could allow Sonos speakers to play certain music and lock the doors, and think off scenes not as lightning only scenes but as home automation scenes.

I just migrated everything over from Smartthings to Hubitat and think it's a great product. Super pleased with the Lutron integration and finally be able to use Pico's and such. I used to run a NodeJS container on my NAS for just that purpose and now it's neatly integrated.

However. the one thing I miss from Smartthings are the scene settings allowing to control anything you want and configure a complete scene.

[bravenel]

@ardjanbarnas

However. the one thing I miss from Smartthings are the scene settings allowing to control anything you want and configure a complete scene.

Well, we don't do it the same way as SmartThings, but the exact same outcome is easily accomplished.

[frits]

You can create a virtual switch device and switch it on in your scene. With rule machine you can then do anything you want with that switch as a trigger.

[bravenel]

No need for an extra switch. The scene activator itself can serve that purpose.

[ardjanbarnas]

I read somewhere in another sub-forum of Hubitat that you guys welcome some level of feedback and suggestions...

For you to respond with "Well, we don't it the same way as Smartthings.... " seems just more than unhelpful. How about a "Great! another conversion from Smartthings, welcome aboard and let me know if I can be of help migrating"

Any suggestions or ideas are not meant as critique but as suggestions to make it easier to create the necessary automations and make those automations more efficient.

I'll end up writing my own scenes app most likely....

[bravenel]

I answered your original suggestion with the reason it wasn’t likely to be acted on. Did you really expect an ongoing debate about our design decisions? What you want to have happen is easy to do. Why isn’t that enough? We aren’t inclined to mimic ST feature for feature.

You know, if what you want to do wasn’t easy, that would be a different discussion. But the fact is that there is more power and flexible way of doing it the way it is currently designed. When you want to extend the functionality of a Scene, a simple trigger in RM opens the door to doing anything. Those extra capabilities couldn’t possibly be added to Scene. That’s our approach to feature extension.

[ardjanbarnas]

No debate. I was trying to make a case for a functionality request. That's all. I see you added to your response and appreciate you sharing the feature extension approach and it makes sense.

It is the fact that Smartthings and Hubitat have different approaches to things that takes a while to wreck your brain in the other direction.

[ms1]

If all your bulbs are integrated via the Hue bridge, should you have groups in Hue containing only bulbs then have another group in HE with those same bulbs plus switches, plugs etc. or just use HE for grouping?

[henrik.kristensen]

My groups of lights do not refresh when all the individual lighst are turned on or off via a switch. The individual lights are refreshed every 10 seconds so they show the correct setting (on or off). But the group they are in do not change status and therefore show the wrong status in the dashboard.

It could be solved if it was possible to send a "refresh" command to the group device - will this be possible?

[dan.t]

@henrik.kristensen

The individual lights are refreshed every 10 seconds so they show the correct setting (on or off). But the group they are in do not change status and therefore show the wrong status in the dashboard.

There is a trick/bug with the Hue integration. The refresh doesn't work if you only select Hue groups. But, you can get the refresh for groups working as long as you select at least one individual hue bulb as well.

Had the same problem last week.....

[laurian.cuzma]

Hello
Since Groups 2.1 I saw my old groups dose not update. Lights or switches are turn on and off but group dose not change.(I use group on when any member is on). When I redo my groups it seems to work. I use enough groups and in different dashboard and rules so is some work to redo all in 2.1.

1. Is any way to upgrade a group from 2.0 to 2.1?
2. I any way to see where a group is used like for devices?
3. I am using groups in groups in groups. Is this a good practice? one room color lights are one group, dimmable are other group. This 2 together are a new group room light. And All room groups are in one big all lights group.
4. Some time when I activate a scene the lights are changing multiple time and in the end they will be set as wanted. But still scene does not show as active. Any thoughts what I do wrong?

Thanks
Larry

[bravenel]

@laurian.cuzma

1. Is any way to upgrade a group from 2.0 to 2.1?
2. I any way to see where a group is used like for devices?
3. I am using groups in groups in groups. Is this a good practice? one room color lights are one group, dimmable are other group. This 2 together are a new group room light. And All room groups are in one big all lights group.
4. Some time when I activate a scene the lights are changing multiple time and in the end they will be set as wanted. But still scene does not show as active. Any thoughts what I do wrong?

1. There is no automatic way to upgrade a Group from 2.0 to 2.1. You would just have to recreate it.
2. A Group is used by its group device. The group device In Use By information shows where it is being used, which by inference, is where the Group is being used.
3. It is fine to have Groups within Groups. However, don't get carried away, as a Group does introduce some small lag into the activation of lights. Group 2.1 reduced this drag element from Group 2.o.
4. You would need to show the Scene and probably the logs from the devices in it to diagnose what might be happening.

[laurian.cuzma]

Oau thanks for fast answer :). I am at work now I will check the scenes at home