2.2.7 Zigbee OTA updates

Well this sound very easy with Adore Bathroom and some outdoor lights screwed to the walls and Hue hub having integrated wifi. Oh no wait... Don't get me wrong Borris, I really appreciate your help, thank you! I just think it is kind of ridiculous jumping through these hoops having in mind it is 2021 and not 1992. If I could upgrade the Ikea Lamps, that would help a lot for getting the Mesh better. I will try with a Hue Motion Sensor. Eventhough, I still think that there has to be another issue, if the log says file not found or sth.

The issue is that your zigbee mesh isn’t good enough to reliably relay a sequence of packets that can be assembled at the device end for the firmware update to take.

We can all dance around the issue and find bogeymen to blame, but that isn’t going to change the realities of your zigbee mesh.

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Excuse me, but I am not saying that my Mesh is not the issue at some point. For example when I try to update a lamp, wich starts and then errors a few minutes later. As I posted earlier:

This just does not look like a Mesh issue for me. The thing erros immediately and finds a Filename "null" and you don't think that is strange and could be another issue - not having to do with my messed up Mesh at all? Interessting.

EDIT: After several attempts and moving the hub a little bit, I was able to update at least the Hue lights, which are screwed to the walls. What I do not know: did this do anything? I mean, it would be nice, if they would be able to ZB3.0 now instead of ZLL like the Ikea stuff seems to be able after an update. (If they have been on ZLL - wich I don't know) Is there any way to check that? It is a shame that it is so difficult to find information on this from Philips. The Motion Sensors of course still don't update and another anyoing thing: I rejoined an Osram Strip and tried to update this. It went to 80% then the strip flashed/turned on or got brighter and nothing happend. The Log then began with 20% etc. So now, when I trun the strip off, it comes back on some time later. Seems like the update is in a loop or sth.

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Hi again,
since I have some issues with new Ledvance devices, I was checking for FW Updates for them.
Seems like there are no new ones (also Hubitat does not find them), but I was wondering, if you have included Ledvance already?
https://update.ledvance.com/firmware-overview?submit=eu

I’m assuming you’re referring to Ledvance Zigbee 3.0 devices. These aren’t available over here, but I’m assuming the firmwares could be added. @mike.maxwell should be able to answer this.
Might not be helpful, but I put all Hue devices on the Hue bridge. Hue bulbs were as bad as Osram for me (and others here) dropping messages and generally being bad repeaters. I haven’t had any problems with Ledvance Zigbee HA stuff, outside of the A-19 rgbw bulbs high failure rate after getting the LL stuff off the mesh. The Osram update several years ago that made the bulbs Zigbee HA, didn’t make them better (in the U.S.), just incompatible with Hue.

Yes I refer to the ZB3.0 devices. My Smarthome is no fun at the moment. It's a bit a vicious circle, since I would like to have a "better Mesh" (exchanging devices) before I go into modes and automatisation. Osram devices totally dropped after 2 Firmware upgrades already and I am no fan of rejoining them every other week. Hence, I am exchaning those. I got Osram Mini Garden Poles and now got new Ledvance ones. Of course, having issues with them right a way as well.
It's a pain, because the entire configuration of my home would take some time and now it feels like wasting a lot of time and effort just for imho simple stuff, which should work "out of the box". Anyoing. But back to topic...

I'm not trying to be sarcastic.... But if you keep having issues with Osram/LEDVANCE, why do you keep buying more??? Maybe try a different brand?

Because it's not just this brand. Actually, I come from ST and used the Osram stuff without any issues (except the outdoor plug) for quite some time. We have a bigger apartment now and I migrated to hubitat and with that the Osram lightstrips start having issues.

Also, I was made aware of the problematics of ZLL/ZHA here. That's why I would like to "upgrade" most of my stuff to ZB3.0, if possible. That's the only reason why I bought the Ledvance poles. I actually did not use the old Mini Garden Poles with hubitat yet, only 3 LED Strips, which dropped after FW Updates. So that was the reason I exchanged them with the ZB3.0 Version, before even having trouble with them.

But talking about brands:

  1. I had 3x hue GU10 in one lamp. Grouped together and most of the times one of the bulbs (of course a different one every time) did not react or dropped at all. Got Innr GU10 and everything is fine now.
  2. Still I cannot upgrade the Hue Motion sensors (which I believe is a Hubitat error)
  3. I have no idea whether some of my Hue stuff is running on ZLL or ZB3.0
  4. I cannot upgrade Ikea Tradfri devices from ZLL to ZB3.0 via OTA and Hubitat (which would improve my Mesh at lot, I think)
  5. I have Aqara window sensors, which - oh wonder - dropped. I would like to exchange them with the new ZB3.0 version - which oh wonder - is not supported by a custom driver yet.
  6. Now I have this issue with the Ledvance Poles, eventhoug the Osram ones work fine (colorwise, have not tested them long term and as I said: due to Mesh reasons I would prefere the ZB3.0)

You see, it is not one brand, which keeps me busy. And yes, I know that this smarthome stuff is not simple due to so many brands/protocols etc. But I really would love to see that I could use one hub with different brands and don't run into these kind of issues. Seriously, it's almost 2022 and not 1995, people keep talking about the IOT stuff and if you want to do more than "light on/off" you have to become a professional coder? Come on...

I mean, I have not even tried to integrate "non standard Zigbee devices" like Tedee Smartlock, and atm I really am not looking forward to that project!

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??? because you also wrote ....

and

AFAIK, there are no ZLL Tradfri devices that are supported by Hubitat. And Aqara contact sensors are definitely not standard Zigbee.

Do you actually know if Ikea maintains two firmware versions with different Zigbee application profiles?
It would be very unusual if they did, Ikea Zigbee devices are amongst the cheapest devices available, and this is reflected in their firmware implementations, in short, its low budget and usually incomplete.

If the ZB3 devices were actually available, you probably wouldn't need a custom driver...

Zigbee 3 isn't a panacea for bad mesh issues any more than ZLL is mesh death...

There are good routers and there are bad routers, and as usual on planet earth there is no free lunch, and you generally get what you pay for.

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Isn't that the truth - I grabbed some ultra cheap ZB 3 bulbs - "Liokkie" (eWeLink) - they paired and worked fine but most died after 3 or 4 months - suspect inadequate cooling. Still have a couple left..

The quality of the cheapo stuff seems to slowly be getting better over time though as the manufacturing improves/standardizes. Still hit or miss though. At least ZB 3 in theory promises backwards compatibility and stricter spec adherence (haha).

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@aaiyar My bad, with "non standard zigbee" I meant no Zigbee at all, but integration via API etc.
What do you mean there are no ZLL Tradfri devices supported by Hubitat? Out of the blue I would say all of my Ikea devices should be ZLL, since they are some years old, never saw a Ikea Tradfri Hub (thus never got updated) and the early Tradfri devices are ZLL if I can trust the information from Zigbee Alliance database and posts from times when Ikea Tradfri came out.

@mike.maxwell
As I stated in an earlier post, it seems that way. I have not tried it yet.
And yes the Aqara device(s) is/are available. I have 10 of them here, cannot use them. Asked in the topics regarding them, if I can provide any information that could help editing the device driver. No answer yet. Thank you.
As you can tell, there are people out there way more familiar with Zigbee. I am actually counting on information which I got from users here and the mantra was: ZLL is bad, causes issues, ZHA is way better for Mesh. Hubitat does not support ZB3.0, but fallback is ZHA. For me that means: get ZB3.0 devices to be future prove and get a better Mesh.

Do I actually benefit from it? I don't know. Is it bad to have 2-3 ZLL devices in a "good" Mesh? I don't know. The only issues I have been the Hue GU10s, which I replaced. I have a similar issue with Tradfri bulbs, but not nearly as often as with the Hue. Also sometimes reaction times are a bit slow. Maybe that becomes better, maybe not. How do I know before trying updating the Ikea devices? If I do that and the information about ZLL to ZB3.0 is correct, I only have to replace the 3x Osram lights an I am almost ZLL free (only Hue stuff left from which I don't know the status), except the Garden Poles and Aqara sensors, which I have replacement for already.

I am also thinking about just getting an Aqara Hub, because maybe I could just eliminate my Harmony base and I bought bluetooth Aqara water sensors by mistake, which should pair with that base. The only problem with that idea is: I would have no Mesh, because I only pair sensors to the hub. I believe that is not a good idea.

I can think of some people who parrot this advice, but I don't think it's quite accurate. The Zigbee profile (ZLL, ZHA 1.2, Zigbee 3.0) per se is likely not the issue. It does happen to mostly coincide: many of the "naughty list" bulbs are ZLL, like early Hue, GE Link, Cree, and others. However, I think Sylvania/Lightify/Osram, which has historically had ZLL or ZHA 1.2 firmware for the same device depending mostly on region, are, I think, equally problematic on either firmware.

Most new bulbs, including a couple of the above brands, are Zigbee 3.0, and users anecdotally report fewer problems with those, but you'd really need someone with a sniffer to say objectively. That is how @mike.maxwell backed up his claims about the aforementioned bulbs in the early days of Hubitat--they were just eating things they were supposed to route. I don't know if he or anyone has looked at it since. But I don't think it's related to the Zigbee profile per se regardless. Personally, I still keep it safe by keeping all my bulbs on a different mesh.

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the Aqara Zigbee 3.0 devices?, where exactly are these available? BTW alibaba and the like or direct from China don't count as available for most people, including me.
So if you want to loan them to me, I'll write/verify drivers for them...

There is nothing in the Zigbee 3.0 spec that would guarantee a better routing/mesh experience...
and anyone that thinks certification guarantees proper functionality just hasn't been exposed to many devices, Zigbee or Z-Wave...

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Correct, it isn't...

Even Lowes Iris V1 devices (from the mid 2000's?) which use the alertMe Zigbee profile can and do route frames properly for ZHA 1.2 and ZLL profiles...

The issues with bad routers are crappy hardware and or firmware, it's that simple...

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Yes, I ordered them 2-3 weeks ago on Aliexpress. I don't see the difference in buying them directly there (often with a EU warehouse nowadays) or via reseller for way more - especially because we do not really have a reseller in Germany for Aqara devices. Proshop is from Denmark and costs twice what I paid (and I am not sure they have the new sensors yet). Where are you located? Write me a PM! :slight_smile:

Okay. I was told that ZLL actually has.. oh boy how do I put this? :smiley: "Less space and thus long commands get shrinked or dropped"? Or how bertaabcd1234 put it: Eaten. So yes, I do believe that companies can mess up a product by bad software, I just thought by that explanation that it indeed is a protocol thing and does not happen with ZHA and ZB3.0 at least not to such an extend. Thanks for the clearification!

@mike.maxwell Can you have a lock at this problem with OTA updating the motion sensors as well? Does this work for you?

if the update fails, it fails, we have no control over the customers network space.
But yes, I have updated all of my Philips motion sensors, these were used extensively when testing the OTA update backend.

I live in the southern end of Nevada in the United States, if shipping to GR from US for these is reasonable we can return them, it's likely that shipping them back will cost more than the devices in the first place...

There's no way I will ever enter my cc info into a eCommerce site based out of China, that's how I feel about that. And trust me, I'm not a tin-foil kind of guy either...

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Since I had quite some trouble updating the hue bulbs and lamps: I do agree with that. Nevertheless, with the motion sensors this is different. They fail right away and keep on stating "null" in the filename and version every single time. None of them has started the update to a certain percentage and failed. This is why I asked again. For me this behaviour "feels wrong" to be a customers network problem?!

I believe I can make that work. You could just return it to a US adress. Let me look into the fine print of postage tomorrow, I will PM you!

Haha, other people say that about Meta and/or Google :wink:

well, fail right off the bat, or fail halfway through, not much difference...
anyway, i've been unable to replicate this issue, so there's not much I can do.
diagnosing things like this requires having a frame capture running, which means you need to have the problem present in order to capture it...

Let me know about the other devices!

I see the difference in the filetype=null: For me it's a difference, if an update does not even start and fails, because it cannot find the file for the update or if it starts uploading a file and the Mesh is weak and fails then. But true, not having and not beeing able to reproduce that issue makes providing help very difficult. At least you were able to confirm that this worked for you at some point :man_shrugging:

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