Wink moves to Subscription model

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Thanks for the response. One Amazon reviewer told me that when migrating from Wink to Hubitat, he had to first remove every device from Wink, and to do that, he had to physically open up wall plates.

Did you have a similar experience? I don't understand what devices would requiring you to open up wall plates to uninstall from Wink... I thought it could be done in the App itself.

Bear in mind that I have ~40-50 lights. Here is a quick list of all the devices I have connected via Wink:

[Leviton DZS15-1LZ Decora]

[Leviton DD0SR-DLZ Dual Voltage 120/277VAC Decora Digital/Decora Smart Matching Switch Remote] (this one probably doesn't matter, is just a remote switch)

[Leviton DZPA1-2BW Decora Smart Plug-in Outlet with Z-Wave Plus Technology,]

[Leviton DZ15S-1BZ Decora Smart Switch with Z-Wave Plus Technology]

[Leviton VRF01-1LZ Vizia RF + 1.5A Scene Capable Quiet Fan Speed Control,]

[LUTRON P-PKG1W-WH Caseta Wireless 600-watt/150-watt Multi-Location In-Wall Dimmer with Pico Remote Control Kit]

[Rachio Smart Sprinkler Controller, WiFi, 16 Zone 2nd Generation]

[Schlage Z-Wave Home Keypad Lever, Satin Nickel, FE599NX CAM 619 ACC 619]

[Kwikset 910 Z-Wave SmartCode Electronic Deadbolt featuring SmartKey ]

[Chamberlain B550 Smartphone-Controlled Ultra-Quiet & Strong Belt Drive Garage Door Opener with MED Lifting Power, Blue]

[Chamberlain WD1000WF 1-1/4 HPS Wi-Fi Garage Door Opener]

[Philips Hue White and Color Ambiance 2-Pack A19 LED Smart Bulb]

[Philips Hue White & Color Ambiance Outdoor LightStrip 2m/7ft]

[iHome iSP5 Wi-Fi SmartPlug]

[GE LINK A19 60W Soft White Single Bulb]

[GE PLUG-IN outdoor smart switch]

[Ring Video Doorbell Pro]

And of course, various Amazon Echo devices: Echo Show, Echo Spot, and various 2nd and 3rd generation Echo Dots.

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The only reason I could think of to do this is that he didn't remember model numbers of the switches.

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It's to do with z-wave devices mostly and allowing them to be excluded (then possibly fully reset, always best when moving platform). With ZigBee devices you can often remove within one platform whilst searching in the new and it will remove then rejoin all at once. With z-wave you have to remove it and tell the hub to go into excluding mode, then do the dance on the device depending on the manufacturer instructions (usually press a hidden button). You then need to do the same thing on the new hub but with inclusion mode.

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If I remember correctly, my switches are Z-wave but I have reset them without having to pull plates off...

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Also for my Lutron P-0PKG1W-WH Caseta Wireless In-Wall Dimmers with Pico, is "Lutron Caseta L-BDGPRO2-WH - SmartBridge Pro Programmed Via Lutron App" what I need buy to get it to officially work with Hubitat? Sorry I can't seem to share the Amazon link....

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I've never had to pull a wallplate off and all my devices are zwave. There were a couple that part of factory resetting them required me to flip off the circuit breaker to kill the power, but that's about the worst I had to do when I switched my 30-40 devices over from SmartThings. The biggest pain was finding all the various manufacturer exclude instructions... Then I discovered HE listed out most of the instructions for you in one place, Join and Reset Instructions - Hubitat Documentation Of course I found that out after spending hours searching each manufacturer website...

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It all depends on the device. Some have special dances with the controls that do the same thing as pressing the hidden button. But each one is different, if you haven't had to remove the cover before to do it you won't need to now.
Most of my z-wave devices I would have to get to the device itself and press or triple tap buttons on

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Correct. Here's the Amazon link:

https://www.amazon.com/Lutron-Caseta-L-BDGPRO2-WH-SmartBridge-Programmed/dp/B00Z8AXQCQ/

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No in-wall relays? I used to have several of those (all Lutron now). They were the only devices I had to pull the wall plate off to reset.

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Good point, I didn't have any relays when I switched over. I still try to keep them at a minimum, I only have 2, one in a lamppost and one behind a heated bathroom mirror

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So z-wave in general for "security" forces you to exclude a device from one hub before you can move it to another (which makes sense so a random person in a car outside your house couldn't take over a device). The other way around that is to physically reset your devices.

When I switch from Wink to HE, I did exactly that, in the Wink app I 'removed' a device, then paired it to HE, and did that process for all my devices. It didn't take long To Be honest.

I also did it over about 4 days, as I didn't move my Cassetas until my Lutron pro hu arrived.

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Escrow has nothing to do with "purchase", as the purchaser would presumably continue to support the code. In a software development environment, escrow is invoked when the company goes kaput for whatever reason, or otherwise leaves the product orphaned.

A good model here would be Sonos - they have said that their "older" devices will no longer get updates, and would not be compatible at all with any of their new devices.

This would not be the case with Wink, but it may soon be, as users exit the platform rather than pay to continue to use what they already paid for in full, and Wink dies of its own error.

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Sorry but I think I'm still not understanding.

For one thing, I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume an entity that acquires hubitat, or purchases their assets during a bankruptcy proceeding, will continue to support the code.

Whatever the cause of the company going kaput, I do think it's reasonable to assume they will file for bankruptcy. In that case, someone will purchase their assets that have some value. Like the code that runs the platform. What will that purchaser do with that code afterwards? Who knows.

Can you explain further how this escrow process would apply to sonos announcing several of their older products are now end-of-life? Sonos clearly has an incentive to get their users with old devices to buy new ones. I'm not sure I understand what their incentive would be to release any of the code related to how their older devices used to function?

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Can we just move on, people are just making stuff up and spreading false information.

@marktheknife is correct, it doesn't, a company has the right to stop selling their products and if the EULA permits, no longer support services for old products. "Copyright" literally means the "right to copy," and it also includes the right to say "no one can copy." So it means can do what they want. Public domain and escrow don't come into play.

I've worked for ISVs (Independent Software Vendors) my whole career. I've placed a lot of source code in escrow. To make it clear this is what that means - when a large customer purchases software from my small shop, they are sometimes worried we will go out of business and they're screwed. So in the MSA (Master Services Agreement) they require that we place the source code in escrow in the event we go out of business.

It's not an automatic thing that just "happens." Even for products we placed in escrow, only the customers who PAID for us to put it in escrow get the source code, it doesn't just suddenly become public domain. Here is the general wording we use "during the duration of this Agreement, upon the dissolution of partnership of Company, bankruptcy, or otherwise legally recognized inability of Company to continue to provide the hereunto licensed software services, as determined by the AGREED JURISDICTION, Client will be granted the non-exclusive rights to continue to use the licensed software in perpetuity. This agreement does not allow for the Client to sell or otherwise distribute the licensed software or to otherwise enhance the software beyond changes that would be reasonably considered maintenance and fixes. "

Generally speaking I only agree to put this in the contract for customers that are paying at least $500,000 and I usually jack up the price by $25,000 if they ask me to do this.

In the US, corporate copyrights have nothing to do with death, corporations don't die. Corporate copyrights expire 95 years from the date of publication or 120 years from the date of creation... both long after we'll all be dead.

How about everyone just move on from pretending they're experts in how copyrights work for software (not referring to anyone here in particular and also referring to myself) and focus on how we can help people move forward?

Yeah, it sucks what Wink did. Yeah if I were a customer I'd be pissed off too. Sorry, the hard reality is your options are pay the monthly fee and hope they don't go out of business, or switch to something else. I recommend the latter. These grand notions of it just becoming free or some legal remedy are fantasy. When a company goes out of business you're just kind of screwed, it is what it is. Life sucks sometimes. You don't think there are going to be thousands of businesses around the world who promised services to customers and can't deliver and go out of business due to stay-at-home restrictions? This is going to be life for the next few years, unfortunately.

The beauty of HE is, for the most part, you don't have to worry about this happening. While there are a few cloud dependent features, 95% of what HE does is local and would work if the company went out of business. That's the benefit of their model vs, Wink, SmartThings, and others. Would it be NICE if the HE team said "if we go out of business we'll release the source code for our platform and cloud API so you guys can keep using it?" Yes, that'd be very nice. It'd also be stupid. If HE goes out of business it probably means people like Mike and Bruce and Bobby lose their homes and everything they value. More than likely they try to sell as much as they can to the highest bidder. That's just the way the world works, like it or not...

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He said, then making the longest post thus far :laughing: :joy:

Guys - its the weekend (at least, already where I am). Enough already. Time to lock-down party :clown_face:

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I think it's a record how many times I have seen this over the past 24 hours. :rofl:

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How about I add to that number then, :grin:
Another Wink refugee / (soon to be) new HE user here. Just wanted to thank all the existing community members for some very interesting threads I've read since yesterday when I started researching what I was going to get to replace my Wink after getting the subscription notice from Wink on my phone Wednesday evening. This is certainly a lively community!
There is no way I'm going to pay Wink a subscription. Mostly just a matter of personal principle, but also because it's obvious that they're on their last legs and paying a subscription would just delay the inevitable need to switch to something else. Happy? No. But I do understand the situation.
And sure, it would have been nice if the HE price had stayed at $99, but if it's as good as I've heard (my brother has one) and read (the threads here), then it will be well worth it. I understand supply and demand and don't begrudge Hubitat the price increase.
So my HE should be delivered tomorrow. I'll probably post more once I get the basics (mostly just a few lights) set up and start thinking about additional things for it to do.
It should be fun.

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Nice... Welcome to the community

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The above is adorably misinformed. When a corporation goes bankrupt, the IP is quite often bought, the patents added to a collection with which to intimidate, and the copyrights are often not of much interest, moreseo code to discontinued devices. The idea of an escrow is to take the copyrights and the code itself, and assure buyers of the product that they will still have the "right to repair" what they bought, most often by allowing the customers themselves to work on "open source" revisions to the code, which would go into the public domain under one license type or another.

Move on? Why? The topic is core to the survival of "the internet of things marketplace" as a viable set of products. No one would buy a toaster if it became useless the moment that the manufacturer suddenly decided that it was too costly or too much trouble to simply stand behind the basic warranty of merchantability, and "turned off" the ability of toasters to toast unless a newly-created subscription fee was paid.

Consider (1) Aether's smart speaker, the Cone; (2) Google's Revolv smart hub.; (3) NetGear's connected home wireless security cameras, VueZone; (4) the Jibo cloud-connected robot; (5) Google's killing off 'Works With Nest' functionality. All this just from ONE tech news site query.

I see a pattern...

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Thanks for calling me adorable.

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