Third Party Developers like Rboy

💬 Lounge Debate Chamber
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The foregoing notwithstanding, the Customer acknowledges that the Customer may not assign, sublease, distribute, share or otherwise make the Customer Software available to third parties for commercial purposes; provided, however, that Customer may distribute and share Customer Software for non-commercial purposes for no compensation

I paid rboy for lifetime use of the apps. It was worth it to me, even though other alternatives existed -the benefit i got from rboy outweighed the alternative. It is very nice to have the freedom to be able to make that choice.

I emailed the rboy app developer asking if they could port to Hubitat yesterday. Via email she (the email was signed by Maddie which i presume is a female) said that they can not make commercial apps available on the hubitat platform without approval by hubitat due to how they license the software. According to rboy, hubitat does not have any signaled any interest in letting them sell their commercial apps on the platform.

I would like to continue to use the apps i own on hubitat, i would even consider buying them again if need be. I can't do that because the license I quoted prohibits anyone from selling any software that runs on the platform.

so, can someone please enlighten me why it is in hubitats or their users best interest to prohibit freedom of choice on the platform? Freedom is the absence of coercion. This license agreement is explicitly limiting freedom.

If this is rooted in commercial terms, eg. hubitat wants a cut of the cake when apps are sold on the platform then at least do what most platform houses do, create an ISV license program and license the commercial use of the API's maybe together with a bit of developer support.

I'd love to hear what the strategy is from a company representative and why it is my best interest not to have freedom of choice on this platform? There clearly is a few more than just me who thinks this is a topic that deserves to be revisited.

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I think that this has been hashed over many times. But use as an example McDonalds. They sell hamburgers. But you as ParB want to sell french fries to McDonalds customers by advertising "ParB fries tastes great with McDonalds hamburgers".

McDonalds says "wait a minute, you can't do that, you are using our name, our reputation, and going against our legal rights. But if you pay us $1 for every $10 in sales, we will allow you to sell fries".

And ParB says, "No, I want to just sell fries without paying you". Or there is some other ridiculous demand from ParB, like McDonalds must pay ParB $100 every time a ParB fry is consumed.

Should McDonalds just let ParB sell fries? Shouldn't McDonalds defend their name and ability to make profits?

I have said it before, and I will say it again, if Rboy wants to be on Hubitat, I think he needs to negotiate this right like apparently Sharptools did. I think Hubitat is open to this concept, but apparently neither side can come to an agreement here. I do think there is something in place (your ISV license, or whatever that may be) as Hubitat are (apparently) doing something like this with Sharptools.

Nobody but Hubitat and Rboy can make this happen. We can do nothing but speculate about how these two parties have tried to negotiate, or IF they even did so. Rboy "wanting" to have his apps here does not equate to him actually sitting down with Hubitat and being serious about doing so.

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45

I think that this has been hashed over many times. But use as an example McDonalds. They sell hamburgers. But you as ParB want to sell french fries to McDonalds customers by advertising "ParB fries tastes great with McDonalds hamburgers".

McDonalds says "wait a minute, you can't do that, you are using our name, our reputation, and going against our legal rights. But if you pay us $1 for every $10 in sales, we will allow you to sell fries".

And ParB says, "No, I want to just sell fries without paying you". Or there is some other ridiculous demand from ParB, like McDonalds must pay ParB $100 every time a ParB fry is consumed.

Should McDonalds just let ParB sell fries? Shouldn't McDonalds defend their name and ability to make profits?

McDonalds do not have any means to prevent the scenario you outlined. This is falling under trademark law, which allows you to reference other trademarks in advertising.

It is perfectly acceptable and within the bounds of the law to use another's trademark in advertising, provided certain standards are met. The advertisement must be truthful and the use of another's trademark must not give a false impression of connection, approval or sponsorship by the owner of the other mark.

Consider this, under your interpretation of trademark law the Pepsi challenge could never have been run as a marketing campaign since it refers in advertising to a direct competitors brand. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghMYzo0rgrw

I think this scenario is more relevant.
A manufacturer of footballs wants Nike to pay a fee to allow their shoes kick their particular brand of football despite the interface (eg. the football) is standardized across several other vendors of footballs. They write the license agreement of the football in such a way that Nike is prohibited from allowing their end-users from using their shoes and that football in a combination unless Nike pays fees to the football manufacturer. A bit absurd isn't it?

I think these agreements doesn't hold up in court. But since we are talking micro companies here the cost-benefit of getting this resolved in court is slim to none. Either way the real looser is the consumer whose freedom of choice has been limited.

Final point, why a Terms of Service agreement and not a regular license agreement? was this originally going to be using a different business model than selling hardware boxes?

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It was always a hardware box with a license to use the home automation platform software in it, which isn’t fully open-source, and the license isn’t fully unrestricted (in other words, there are terms on how it can be used).

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I'm another person that recently moved from SmartThings to Hubitat and used RBoys apps....and was disheartened to find out that they weren't available.

While I understand the standard TOS is that developers are not allowed to charge for apps it leads me to believe there is a Non-Standard TOS that allows it....otherwise how could Sharptools charge for their service. Also, the package manager has a donation request in the app itself.

I find little difference between asking for donations or charging for the app since the net result is the same....the developer is compensated for their time. While many developers develop apps as a hobby, there are some that develop apps for the livelihood.

I would hope that with the amount of interest that this topic seems to have, that the leadership at Hubitat would take the lead and try to work something out......RBoy appears to have (at least by the accounts above and the emails I've had with them) an interest in providing apps on the HE platform.

Anyway, just my two cents.

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The problem is we’re unlikely to ever get a real accounting here re: private negotiations between @RBoy1 @RBoy and @hubitat @staff.

So people want to know whose “fault” it is that they can’t use their app of choice on Hubitat, but there’s no way to establish that here in this forum.

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It's not that's is not allowed, it's that is not allowed UNLESS an agreement is made with Hubitat first. Obviously that has happened since there is a built-in Sharptools app.

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I suspect both of ya'll are right but I was going on the response I received from Hubitat when I asked the question:

You have been misinformed. Our TOS do not allow users to sell apps for our platform. Perhaps R-Boy wants to offer his apps for free; nothing has ever prevented him from doing that. Just ask him to allow you to run the apps you use on Hubitat, and see what he says. Surely, he should allow that since you’ve already paid for them.

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Sharptools does offer a free tier of service.

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If there has been an exchange of money at any time then the apps are not free and thus a violation of the tos.

I emailed rboy yesterday and asked rboy if this is just a disagreement over money? They informed me that they can't get hubitat engaged in a discussion and have been unable to even get started on how to get their apps on the platform without violating the licence.

I keep on suggesting that it would be nice if a policy for be articulated for the benefit of the consumer. If that policy is that commercial activity is prohibited it would be informative for the customer to understand the reasons why hubitat believes my freedom of choice should be limited.

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The standard TOS, yes.

The TOS that we are all assuming sharptools agreed to, is not the standard TOS.

But we are customers, not potential licensees of the non-standard TOS they are apparently willing to hash out with developers, under the right circumstances. So we don’t get to hear about those TOS.

I know there have been discussions between RBoy and Hubitat Inc. But again, whose “fault” it is they didn’t go anywhere is subject to interpretation, and it is unlikely we will get a straight answer or full accounting here.

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I don’t work for Hubitat but IMHO it’s not really that mysterious.

For some users, there’s presumably little downside to having access to a specific community dev’s code that runs on the Hubitat platform.

But for them as a company, it’s far more complex than that, particularly when the dev expects to make a profit off of offering their apps to other Hubitat users.

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Hub Connect should be an option if there are apps/drivers/features on ST that aren't available on HE.

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Their policy is already articulated in the TOS and in a staff post to this thread:

It is their business not yours. You are free to purchase their product and you are free not to purchase their product. Their business decisions that limit the use of their product to 3rd parties is exactly that. Their own business decisions. And you are most definitely NOT entitled to know the reasons behind these business decisions.

I sincerely hope that they don't care one iota about your freedom of choice being limited or care to share any reasons for their internal business decisions. What I do hope is they are successful in creating and growing the business they are hoping for. Therefore, ensuring I have functional, supported hub, with ongoing updates and improvements.

You may consider it "good business" and "respecting your customer" for Hubitat to articulate the reasons you are asking for. But that is irrelevant. It is not your business, it is up to them and them alone to make these decisions.

Hubitat has the "freedom of choice" to not share this information with you. Do you believe their freedom of choice should be limited or do you only care when it is your own freedom of choice?

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Actually, this is exactly what I'm asking for, what is the reason why they prohibit commercial activity on their platform?. Id like to know because I want to do business with companies whose values align with my own.

Rboy told me in an email dated yesterday that they/he/she has been unable to engage in a dialogue, that there is a refusal to communicate. i don't know if that is true or not, but i have no reason to believe them to be lying to me. hubitat hasn't commented so i don't know their position.

*My point is that the TOS states what the policy is, but it does not state which values the company has. And anytime a policy is outside the mainstream it suggest the company has a value outside the mainstream. I'd, and others, would like to know what that value is so we can make a choice if we agree with that value or not. *

Since the company has allowed at least one for pay vendor there appears to be a standard of behavior. US federal law defines discrimination as refusal to service someone using arbitrary reasons or applying the refusal to just one group of people.

So is rboy being discriminated against? If so for what reason? Not all discrimination is illegal, but it would be darn good to know if its ethical. Or is that they are just too busy to deal with this right now? Or is rboy playing me and they are engaged, they just disagree on terms? That would also be good to know.

Business today are expected to show transparency and engagement with their customers. Community forums like this combined with employee engagement on these forums have become the norm in a modern business as a way to build alignment and engagement with the customer.

This is a tiny business. Much larger and far more complex business are having much thornier discussions about their policies and the benefit that offers to the community and their customers. Just look at the debate at Facebook and Google, that's a far more complex business.

You state that its solely their discretion if they should answer this question or not. That is true. But since I wish for hubitat to be successful, I wish to give them every opportunity to demonstrate to their customers that they have values that align with their customers values. That shows that I care, not that i'm a bully.

Peace and love! :slight_smile:

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I guess I’m going to contribute to this pointless debate.. so out of curiosity, how many other companies have you asked this question and successfully gotten an answer?

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You are right, they are a tiny PRIVATE company unlike Google and Facebook and they are under no obligation to share anything to consumer or shareholders which they have none. Bruce, Mike, and crew is definitely under no obligation to share any social stance they may have And you have choice, the choice with your dollars.

Obviously Habitat and RBoy do not agree on the value of becoming partners as of today so they have not become partners yet. It seems pretty cut & dry. You can continue to encourage the two to come together on an agreement but to even imply that they are obligated to do so or either party needs to explain themselves is just incorrect.

EDIT:. how many more post likes this until we end up in the debate chamber? :grinning:

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Actually i've had very few problems engaging with companies. And once you go to wall street you'll find them asking very similar questions trying to gauge your transparency and engagements, probably motivated by the change in the investment public where more and more social responsibility becomes part of the investing public.

In my professional life i frequently have to provide answers to questions of this type, from customers, prospects, internet pundits and others. Ranging from the very small to the very big.

Having a brand value is just the way modern business work. Community is part of that.
Let me quote Harvard Business Review, one of the leading publications of business management:

With a great deal of choice available to your audience no matter what niche you’re in it is becoming harder to stick in the mind of your audience, carve out a place in their hearts as a brand they love, will recommend to others and keep coming back to. And with the growing importance of reviews, rating systems and the immediacy of social media, consumers can broadcast praise or condemnation of a brand equally as quickly and with great reach.

This has seen a greater push for excellent customer service and enjoyable interactions with brands creating memorable experiences, delightful packaging and friendly or funny customer interactions even when faced with complaints.

There has also been an increase in customers seeking more from a brand than product updates and new models. They want to feel a connection to a brand as something they can relate to, this can be seen in a recent statistic from the Harvard Business Review that found 64% of consumers say that sharing the same values with a brand is the primary reason they have a relationship in the first place.

With consistency being a crucial part in becoming memorable to your audience, nurturing loyalty and creating repeat business. How do you deliver your brand consistently? How do you and your team know when to draw the line? How do you represent the brand in both good and difficult situations? What are the principles that your brand adheres to?

These are important questions which if handled incorrectly or not defined can lead to a brand that is inconsistent (in an identity crisis), has customer service issues, sales issues, marketing issues and internal confusion as to how to represent the brand daily. If this is untreated it can also cause a disconnect with your audience.

So no, i don't think i'm out of touch asking these questions.

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But, completely unrealistic expecting us to engage in this topic with you.

If you are going to be uncomfortable using Hubitat Elevation because of your concerns about the company's values, insufficient transparency about the reasons for our policies, or our unwillingness to engage with you on this topic, please feel free to return your purchase for a refund. :slightly_smiling_face:

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This isn’t the first time they have engaged with customers on this issue, so perusal of some previous, similar threads may also help answer your questions.

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