Terms of Service VS SmartThings

So I like the web page stating "ExperienceHome Automation that is Local, Reliable, Fast, and Private"

If the above "motto" is true... What have #2 in the TOS ?

If it is private ... What information is Hubitat selling to 3rd parties ?

I am so sick and tired of being the "product"...

What am I missing here ? ( I just bought one and THEN read the TOS ... )

I didnt want Samsung to have my data with SmartThings... But sounds like both these companies are doing the same thing ???

Help ....

  1. Third Party Services. Customer acknowledges that the Hubitat Platform may aggregate or utilize the services of third parties (such third parties, “Third Parties,” and such services, “Third Party Services”). Hubitat shall not be liable for any actions of any Third Party or otherwise related to any Third Party Services, and Customer shall be responsible at all times for complying with any terms and conditions of the Third Party Services. Customer agrees to hold Hubitat harmless from and against any liability resulting from Customer’s use of, or inability to use, a Third Party Service. Hubitat may block the use of, restrict, disallow or terminate any third party service in its sole discretion. Hubitat disclaims any warranties, terms or conditions as to quality, fitness for purpose, performance or correspondence with description and we do not offer any warranties or guarantees in relation to the availability, use or results from using any Third Party Service.

They could be referring to cloud-based services like Alexa, Google assistant, Life360, Pushover, etc, which hubitat can integrate with. Or whatever service allows the geolocation functionality in the mobile app to work. Or whatever service is hosting the cloud servers that allow the mobile app dashboards to function when you’re away from your LAN.

Or that could be referring to something else entirely I suppose.

Where does it say anything about selling your information to third parties?

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I read this as covering the use of the 3rd party services generally (e.g., Alexa, Pushover, Life360, Sonos), and not information specifically. Besides, have you considered what data on your hub the folks at Hubitat can even access? It's not much. They can have it.

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In recent threads, Hubitat (the company) has refused to give details on what data they can access remotely.

The only safe assumption would be that all data, including geolocatiion and saved data (lock codes? Wifi info? Scan of all LAN devices?) Is available.

Hubitat does not store or even obtain users device data. Hubitat does however allow users to "access" third party services (who DOES obtain and use user data) and

Specifically states that "IF YOU" decide to use these third party services, that Hubitat will not be held liable for what THEY do with your data.

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I think I would respectfully disagree with that characterization and assumption.

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Perhaps I should have said "refused to provide examples on what data they can access..."

Yes, they have said they can't access much, then said that they can access device data, under rare debugging situations...so it is not clear.

What type of device data? Could you link to the thread you’re referring to?

In general I believe they take user privacy seriously based on what they have said in the forum over time, though its tough to follow every statement any staff member has ever made on the topic :slightly_smiling_face:.

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I see nothing in the Terms of Service stating the sale of customer information to third parties. Perhaps I simply missed it so I would appreciate it if you pointed it out to me. My interpretation of paragraph #2 (Third Part Services) is that the Hubitat Platform may use third party services. Weather, Amazon Echo, Google Assistant, etc are all third party services.

Paragraph #6 describes their position on customer Privacy. I believe this sentence may have been concerning to you:

Hubitat may need to collect and share personal data that relates to Customer’s use of the Hubitat Platform, including access to information stored on the Hub

Bruce elaborated on this in another thread and it was repeated in an earlier post (see link above).

Ok so just to clarify, the section just applies to if you are connecting to 3rd party... I think I better understand.

Thanks

This portion of the TOS is specifically with respect to other parties that you choose to connect your hub to, as @marktheknife suggests. Hubitat is not in a position to control what these third parties do, hence the disclaimer about same in the TOS.

Hubitat does not sell or provide any data whatsoever about our customers to any third party. We don't collect information about our customers, beyond the bare minimum that we've described previously, and quoted above. It is not part of our business model to attempt to monetize any customer data, irrespective of how it is obtained. We don't sell or share mailing lists, email addresses, or any other information that we may have reason to be in possession of in order to run our business.

I think it's fair to say that we are alone in this regard, in this vast wilderness of tech companies using information gleaned from their customers as a revenue source. It is not our business philosophy to view your information as a potential source of revenue from other parties. On the contrary, our business philosophy is to protect the privacy of our customers' information. We are, for example, probably the only company that provides geofence services that never even sees your mobile device location data -- it is not transmitted by our mobile app to our cloud or to anyone else's cloud.

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It's an unfortunate reality that we all have to adapt to I'm afraid.

Not intentionally trying to sound rude, but one thing you are missing is your understanding of the definition of "third party". In a contractual sense, and a TOS is a contract, a third party is party who is not bound by the agreement, nor a signatory of the agreement. It's legal way of saying that specific terms within the contract are exclusive, (i.e. beyond the control, reach, or may be subject to a seperate TOS, etc.)

What this clause is saying essentially is that if for example, you install the Amazon Alexa integration, you will not hold Hubitat liable for anything that Amazon does with your data, or even if they sell it, or terminate their access to Hubitat as all of those things are beyond the scope of Hubitats control.

Honestly, you haven't a clue here.. Samsung sees EVERYTHING because the system is 100% dependent on the cloud... (Not going to get into semnantics over SmartLighting and local execution.. You still cannot manage the system or use the app without the cloud)

Because of the cloud dependency, Samsung knows EVERY device connected to your system. They know how often those devices activate because they have access to ALL of the event data. They (depending on the devices on your system) know how many people live at your house, how big your house is (# doors & windows), the times you come home, when you leave, what temperature you have your thermostat set to.. If they wanted to, they can identify patterns in movement within your home. They could potentially capture all of your door lock codes because those require cloud access to program. They know every app you have, what 3rd party services you use..

Get the picture here?

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I hope he didn't use Google on his cell phone to find this web site.

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Hmm that’s interesting. I have to say, I just don’t agree with this statement. I feel Bruce has been fairly explicit about what they can and can’t see. and I take him at face value — he’s earned it IMHO. It was based on those comments that I indicated my indifference because what they can see is immaterial to me. But hey YMMV...

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't resist where possible.

I don’t disagree.. Privacy is one of the reasons why I chose Hubitat.

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You can fix that too with DuckDuckGo.

The comment was meant to be sarcastic. I also use DuckDuckGo.

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