Switching to Hubitat has been a challenge so far- HELP!

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I switched about 2 weeks ago from Wink to Hubitat. I switched mainly for the local control and the ability to have more complex rules. I occasionally had issues with my Zigbee lights, but the issues have greatly increased since moving to Hubitat. My Z-way on Wink was alway rock solid, but struggles under Hubitat. I've also had issues with the hub running slow and having to reboot. I am very frustrated and I hope I can get some advice to improve the reliability before I decide to ditch Hubitat.

Here is my setup:

18 Zigbee GE Link Bulbs
8 Zigbee Sengled Element Classic Bulbs
3 Zigbee contact sensors
1 Zigbee Smartthings Button
1 Zigbee Smartthings Motion Sensor
4 Zigbee Ikea TRADFRI Control Outlet
2 Kwikset - SmartCode Z-Wave Locks
1 GE Z-Wave Plug-in Outdoor Smart Switch
1 Aeotec Z-Wave booster

My house is a two story rectangle with about 1,600 sq/ft on each floor. Almost everything I have is downstairs and pretty evenly spread out.

Zigbee - Everyday I seem to have 1-4 lights that quit working. Most of the time I can just cycle the light and it starts working again. Sometimes I have to reset and re-discover the light. Seems to be the GE Link lights more often, but I need to start keeping a tally to see if thats true. I know the Sengleg dont act as a repeater, but the GE do. I also have Zigbee smartplugs spread through the house which should be repeating. I dont believe it to be a signal strength issue as some of my most problem lights are within 15' of the Hubitat. I have followed the Hubitat Zigbee guide for setup and have turned the hub off a couple times for 20+ minutes to let the network heal. Seems to get a little better for a day or two but then gets worse. When I had them on Wink I'd probably have 1 or 2 lights fall off a week, but now its every day. I have my WiFi running on Ch 1 and 6 and Hubitat on 24. I have run a WiFi analyzer and none of my neighbors are blasting me on anything overlapping Zibgee Ch 24. I have watched the Zigbee logs and the signal strength is good and the lastHopLqi is almost always 240 - 255. (Usually 255).

Z-Wave - On Wink, Z-Wave was rock solid and I never had an issue. With Hubitat the range seems to be significantly less. My hub is maybe 20-25' from the back door and it cant control it. I have to move the hub within 12' for it to work. I have a GE Plug near the lock that I hoped would repeat the signal but the communications to it was so poor it never would. I ended up putting a Aeotec repeater near the lock and light and it seems to have got better. I do not have any devices in my home on 900Mhz that would be interfering. Is 12-15' the best I can expect from Hubitat on Z-wave?

Performance - I have twice had significant performance issues that caused me to have to reboot the hub. I have not running a ton of rules and the only custom rule I am running is the NOAA Weather Alerts app. This morning it took 19 minutes for my rule to fire that detects motion and turns on about 20 lights. As I ate breakfast I watched a light turn on about every minute. I rebooted and it returned to normal speed. Is it possible to SSH into the hub and look at process info?

I hate to say it but I'm close to moving everything back to the Wink hub until I can find a solution that is more reliable. I have read over and over again how reliable Hubitat is but I'm just not seeing it. I'd really appreciate some advice from anyone that has experienced similar issues and was able to resolve them. I really, really want to make Hubitat work for me. I like the possibilities, but it has got to be reliable. TIA.

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I'd recommend placing the Aeotec Range Extender to be as close to the HE as possible. And your GE plug to be halfway between the HE and the lock. Repair the z-wave network after moving them.

GE link bulbs are terrible repeaters. As are Crees.

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@aab64feadddf215e92f7 Also I would recommend that the hubitat zigbee be on channel 20. As far as the repeaters I always put them within 10-20 ft. of the device and inline with the device and the hub if possible.

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On the Z-wave Ive dont what you suggest and it does seem to be working. I'm just disappointed in the range vs Wink.

On the Zigbee, I'm seeing bulbs that are in arms reach of the hub have issues so I dont think its a signal issue.

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Why Channel 20 vs Channel 24?

Here is a snip from my Zigbee log. Nothing stands out to me as an unreliable connection. You see anything?

Foyer Left Light2019-10-31 09:00:07.845 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:255, lastHopRssi:-58

Landing Light2019-10-31 09:00:06.933 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:255, lastHopRssi:-50

Foyer Right Light2019-10-31 09:00:06.592 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:255, lastHopRssi:-64

Foyer Left Light2019-10-31 09:00:06.404 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:255, lastHopRssi:-58

Foyer Right Light2019-10-31 09:00:05.534 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:255, lastHopRssi:-64

Landing Light2019-10-31 09:00:05.396 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:255, lastHopRssi:-50

Foyer Left Light2019-10-31 09:00:05.338 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:255, lastHopRssi:-58

Den Bird Light2019-10-31 09:00:05.322 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:255, lastHopRssi:-76

Foyer Right Light2019-10-31 09:00:05.243 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:255, lastHopRssi:-64

Den Bookcase Light2019-10-31 09:00:05.091 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:242, lastHopRssi:-68

Foyer Left Light2019-10-31 09:00:04.983 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:255, lastHopRssi:-58

Den Rabbit Light2019-10-31 09:00:04.875 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:254, lastHopRssi:-53

School Room Table Light2019-10-31 09:00:04.861 profileId:0x104, clusterId:0x8, sourceEndpoint:1, destinationEndpoint:1 , groupId:0, lastHopLqi:255, lastHopRssi:-50

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These are going to cause you problems, as noted above. See the "Tips for Designing Your Zigbee Mesh" section in this document: https://docs.hubitat.com/index.php?title=How_to_Build_a_Solid_Zigbee_Mesh#Tips_for_designing_your_Zigbee_mesh

Unfortunately, there isn't a good solution. Pairing them last might help other devices not use them as repeaters, but Zigbee constantly re-evaluates routes and it's not under user control, so you're likely to experience problems again at some point there.

I might try disabling the NOAA alerts app (see: [TUTORIAL] How to disable Apps and Devices (platform v2.0.3 or newer)) to see if that helps--at least you could eliminate custom code (this is not a "rule") as the problem then, even though I don't think I've heard of any problems with that particular app.

There is no way to monitor hub processes; some people have asked for this in the past, and I get the impression that it is unlikely to happen (one reason: if they used what the underlying OS provided, it would almost certainly mostly be the Java runtime--Hubitat apps and drivers are written in Groovy--so of little help there).

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Zigbee channel 24 was very problematic for me. I have three access points so the best I can do is use channels that are in between (in the valleys of the signal graph). SmartThings ran on 14 and I changed Hubitat to 20 and the problems went away.

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It isn't a signal issue. It is a repeating issue. Quoting @JasonJoel, whose opinion on such matters is sound,

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I would also like to recommend that you swap out those Ikea TradFRI Control Outlets.
They do the job - but just barely. Apparently, their radio is very weak (reported in other forums). I suggest getting a few of the Ikea Tradfri Signal repeaters - they have a great range, and they are very inexpensive ($10Can at my local Ikea).
If you look at: http://ip of your hub/hub/zigbee/getChildAndRouteInfo
you will see that these Ikea Control Outlet have an outcost of 7 - that means it's a lousy repeater.

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aaiya - Do you think the buffer overflow issue on the GE Link bulbs will cause them to enter a unresponsive state and thats what is requiring the cycling of the bulbs? What I dont understand is why I didnt see this when using Wink, but do on the Hubitat.

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So wondering if the GE link bulbs are an issue if adding these will take some of the repeating responsibility off them. I'll go by and pick a few up today and see what happens. I got the outlets for the repeating function but you have me questioning that decision now.

I'm seeing an outcost of 0 on the Ikea plug. I need to research how to interpret this table. I assume the costing is similar to TCP/IP route costing?

Neighbor Table Entry
[Front Porch, 06AC], LQI:255, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:1
[Den Rabbit Light, 128C], LQI:253, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:1
[Foyer Left Light, 12DB], LQI:255, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:1
[Foyer Right Light, 1532], LQI:254, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:1
[Den Ikea Plug, 5253], LQI:255, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:0
[Den Bookcase Light, 5A4F], LQI:243, age:5, inCost:5, outCost:3
[Front Yard Light, 72D2], LQI:254, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:3
[Kitchen Hutch Right Light, 8489], LQI:235, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Front Driveway Light, 854B], LQI:254, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:3
[Kitchen Outlet - Light Bright, 8F14], LQI:255, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:5
[Den Bird Light, 9BDA], LQI:255, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:3
[Office Desk Lamp2, A3C1], LQI:254, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:1
[School Room Floor Light, A3CA], LQI:253, age:5, inCost:3, outCost:3
[School Room Foyer Light, B9FD], LQI:255, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:1

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Just for some perspective, here is a quick and dirty drawing of my Zigbee network. Its a downstairs space about 1,500 Sq/ft. I dont think I have any hop that would be over 15'

Hubitat
Hubitat.jpg3300×2550 199 KB

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There's one more thing that I forgot to mention in my previous note.

I have seen MANY times in this forum "I don't know why it doesn't work with Hubitat, it worked with X (make X=Wink, SmartThings, Vera, etc. ) . I know, because I also did that on an early post. The truth is, that Hubitat is not exactly like X in many respects. I think that many people underestimate that it does require some effort to make that jump from X to Hubitat.
However, I insist that in the end, it's worth that extra effort.
Hang in there, you'll make it...

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That is absolutely the cause. Buffer overflows kill bulbs and prevents messages from being passed on.

Wink and SmartThings (and other hubs as well) do a LOT of work on the back-end to modify the Zigbee routes so that these bulbs never get into the routing table. But, it's also not a 100% foolproof process. While for some, this is a good thing as it abstracts away the complexities of having a good, healthy mesh. On the other hand, abstracting and modifying routes also creates a bad mesh and when things go wrong because of this hand-holding, people don't understand how to fix that. Hubitat doesn't abstract away the routing and also doesn't modify the routes in any way, shape or form. So, that's why you are seeing the issues now.

Not exactly. inCost and outCost are calculated based upon LQI. But, age also factors in. An outCost of 0 means messages are not being passed. That's rather odd for an Ikea plug, however, if it is trying to route to one of your GE Link bulbs that has experienced a buffer overflow condition, that would explain the 0 outCost.

Honestly, that's not going to solve the problem. Zigbee will route to whatever it can based upon LQI and age. So, adding more repeaters doesn't really "drown" out the bad repeaters. Messages will still go to the GE Link bulbs and the GE Link bulbs will still experience buffer overflows.

Your best bet is to save the money on the repeaters and replace the GE Links with something like Sengleds that don't repeat.

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@jtmpush18 I've been in IT a long time so I totally get that. I am going to hang with it a while. I do like how much more information Hubitat is giving to to troubleshoot and I am learning a heck of a lot about Zigbee. Even though I'm frustrated, I am enjoying that and it can be a fun challenge.

Also, as I know many people deal with - the Wife Factor plays on the frustration!

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@corerootedxb What you are saying makes perfect sense. I've never been a fan of the GE bulbs anyway. They have an issue with collecting a lot of moisture in them and I have had quite a few failures. I hate to get rid of them as I have a lot invested in them but I think that may be my best option to build a reliable Zigbee network.

I need to decide what the best path is going to be. I'm pondering:

  1. Replacing with Ikea bulbs. They are a good price and I have a store nearby. I understand they do repeat and there seems to be some mixed reviews.
  2. Replacing with more Singled bulbs. Since they dont repeat that takes a lot of complexity out of the network
  3. Replacing with a Hue system and linking to Hubitat. Most expensive but seems to be the most rock solid option.

Would love some opinions from the group.

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I have quite a few of them and for the most part, they do work well. However, I have seen repeating issues with them, so I am trying to phase them off my hub as I can. They are great lights, don't get me wrong, but now that I have my mesh stable, I want bulbs that aren't going to repeat at all and that basically limits me to Sengleds (which I'm OK with).

I have over 40 Sengled bulbs now and not a single issue with them. They don't drop off, they support LWT (last will/testament) messages (that's the term I use as they send a message back to the hub when physically powered off and on). This is the option I would go for.

I recently phased out my Hue system completely. I had over 40 bulbs there and while, yes, it was rock solid, I had a lot of issues when it came to other, 3rd party systems and API call restrictions; Specifically with things like Alexa that make a LOT of calls to the Hue hub. Plus, for my WAF to stay high, the lights have to be nearly instant when coming on or turning off and making adjustments to them. With Hue, if you have a busy network (like I do), sometimes you'll see a 1-1.5 second delay in responses from your lights. Sometimes, the delay can be up to 2-5 seconds depending on latency and API throttling. This was unacceptable for me and my wife. With the Sengleds, it's usually less than 500ms for a light to turn on and/or adjust brightness.

Finally, if you're going to Ikea, look at getting some of the signal repeaters. I have 4 of them spread around the house and they work TONS better than the plugs do (imho); Especially in areas where you don't need a plug. I've got them plugged into various USB ports all over the house and they repeat flawlessly. I've plugged them into things like a small USB hub I have behind my living room TV and in my computer in my office and a couple of wall outlets with USB ports in them.

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@aab64feadddf215e92f7

I have a different cheaper suggestion. Buy a cheap used Hue hub on ebay for <$20. Put all your GE Links on it. And connect the Hue to Hubitat. Everything will work very well.

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@aaiyar - curious how that will solve the buffer overflow problem? Do you think that will solve it or just reduce it because of fewer bulbs to repeat? I dont have a problem spending money on a good solution if that fixes the problem completely.

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I think Hue's zigbee implementation modifies routes to treat these bulbs as non-routing zigbee end-devices (much like Wink did).