Room Light indicator misbehaving?

[mikes]

Or am I misunderstanding? I have several scenes, each with an associated Activator Switch. I can see multiple scenes as "active", I assume that's the same as the "Indicator", as the docs say very little about indicators.

The two scenes are different, both in which lights are on/off, and the dimmer levels.

All scenes including these have the indicator set like this.

I use the Activator switch to activate the scene, and have "Means to turn off" set to "Don't turn off" (I have another scenes to turn everything off, or expect to just activate a different scene).

Is it HE, or is it me?

[bravenel]

If you turn on debug logging in Room Lights, you can see the devices respond (or not). What I can't tell from the above is if Kitchen Main Light turned off or not. If it did, then the indicator should be off, which evidently it is not. You might refresh this page, as it is not dynamic.

After that, looking at the app's logs should show what is going on.

[mikes]

As I turned on debug logging for each of the scenes in question, the active status went away (as shown under Apps). It had been set to "Mid-High", and even a web refresh (F5, not full Ctrl-F5) didn't bring it back. Activating the scene again did.

I then bounced between 3 different scenes - all now 3 show active (physical lights did change as expected). But even if they didn't, if there isn't a perfect match to a scene, it shouldn't show as Active, should it?

Logs (debug logging on for Mid-Low and Mid-Bright):

dev:9672022-09-25 07:21:47.715 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9682022-09-25 07:21:47.687 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9662022-09-25 07:21:47.605 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9662022-09-25 07:21:47.598 pminfoKitchen Lights Mid-Bright indicator off
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:44.653 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Peninsula level 10
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:44.552 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Peninsula level 10
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:44.393 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Main Light switch on
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:44.370 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Main Light switch on
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:40.124 pminfoAlready Activated
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:40.121 pminfoActivation Event: 'Kitchen Lights Mid-Bright' switch on
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:40.093 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Peninsula, level: 10, rate: 4
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:40.070 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Undercounter, level: 21, rate: 4
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:40.047 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Main Light, level: 25, rate: 4
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:39.995 pminfooff: Kitchen Sink Light
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:39.962 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Upper Cabinet, level: 9, rate: 4
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:39.938 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Fan Light, level: 30, rate: 4
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:39.914 pminfoActivating for All Modes
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:39.908 pminfoActivation Event: 'Activation Device' Kitchen Lights Mid-Bright on
dev:9662022-09-25 07:21:39.887 pminfoKitchen Lights Mid-Bright was turned on
dev:9682022-09-25 07:21:36.004 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9672022-09-25 07:21:35.928 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9672022-09-25 07:21:35.920 pminfoKitchen Lights Mid-Low indicator off
dev:9662022-09-25 07:21:35.874 pminfogroupState someOn
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:32.790 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Undercounter level 21
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:32.790 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Undercounter level 21
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:32.457 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Fan Light switch on
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:32.442 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Fan Light switch on
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:28.446 pminfoAlready Activated
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:28.445 pminfoActivation Event: 'Kitchen Lights Mid-Low' switch on
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:28.422 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Peninsula, level: 1, rate: 4
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:28.397 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Undercounter, level: 21, rate: 4
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:28.373 pminfooff: Kitchen Main Light
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:28.350 pminfooff: Kitchen Sink Light
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:28.318 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Upper Cabinet, level: 1, rate: 4
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:28.297 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Fan Light, level: 1, rate: 4
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:28.246 pminfoActivating for All Modes
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:28.240 pminfoActivation Event: 'Activation Device' Kitchen Lights Mid-Low on
dev:9672022-09-25 07:21:28.211 pminfoKitchen Lights Mid-Low was turned on
dev:9662022-09-25 07:21:27.299 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9682022-09-25 07:21:27.213 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9672022-09-25 07:21:27.158 pminfogroupState someOn
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:24.085 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Undercounter level 2
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:24.073 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Undercounter level 2
dev:9662022-09-25 07:21:23.181 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9682022-09-25 07:21:23.146 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9682022-09-25 07:21:23.138 pminfoKitchen Lights Low indicator off
dev:9672022-09-25 07:21:23.048 pminfogroupState someOn
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:19.970 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Fan Light switch off
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:19.958 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Fan Light switch off
app:9212022-09-25 07:21:19.735 pminfoAlready Activated
app:9212022-09-25 07:21:19.734 pminfoActivation Event: 'Kitchen Lights Low' switch on
app:9212022-09-25 07:21:19.702 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Peninsula, level: 1, rate: 4
app:9212022-09-25 07:21:19.677 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Undercounter, level: 2, rate: 4
app:9212022-09-25 07:21:19.654 pminfooff: Kitchen Main Light
app:9212022-09-25 07:21:19.630 pminfooff: Kitchen Sink Light
app:9212022-09-25 07:21:19.598 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Upper Cabinet, level: 1, rate: 4
app:9212022-09-25 07:21:19.575 pminfooff: Kitchen Fan Light
app:9212022-09-25 07:21:19.545 pminfoActivating for All Modes
app:9212022-09-25 07:21:19.540 pminfoActivation Event: 'Activation Device' Kitchen Lights Low on
dev:9682022-09-25 07:21:19.514 pminfoKitchen Lights Low was turned on
dev:9672022-09-25 07:21:17.541 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9682022-09-25 07:21:17.512 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9662022-09-25 07:21:17.430 pminfogroupState someOn
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:14.341 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Peninsula level 1
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:14.336 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Peninsula level 1
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:14.189 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Upper Cabinet level 1
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:14.086 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Upper Cabinet level 1
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:13.988 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Fan Light level 1
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:13.981 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Fan Light level 1
dev:9672022-09-25 07:21:13.366 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9672022-09-25 07:21:13.358 pminfoKitchen Lights Mid-Low indicator off
dev:9662022-09-25 07:21:13.247 pminfogroupState someOn
dev:9662022-09-25 07:21:13.240 pminfoKitchen Lights Mid-Bright indicator off
dev:9682022-09-25 07:21:13.217 pminfogroupState someOn
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:10.171 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Main Light switch off
app:9192022-09-25 07:21:10.146 pmdebugEvent: Kitchen Main Light switch off
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:09.923 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Peninsula, level: 1, rate: 4
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:09.901 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Undercounter, level: 21, rate: 4
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:09.875 pminfooff: Kitchen Main Light
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:09.840 pminfooff: Kitchen Sink Light
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:09.805 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Upper Cabinet, level: 1, rate: 4
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:09.781 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Fan Light, level: 1, rate: 4
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:09.754 pminfoActivating for All Modes
app:9202022-09-25 07:21:09.750 pminfoActivation Event: 'Activation Device' Kitchen Lights Mid-Low on
dev:9672022-09-25 07:21:09.729 pminfoKitchen Lights Mid-Low was turned on
app:9202022-09-25 07:20:54.964 pminfoAlready Activated
app:9202022-09-25 07:20:54.961 pminfoActivation Event: 'Kitchen Lights Mid-Low' switch on
app:9202022-09-25 07:20:54.934 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Peninsula, level: 1, rate: 4
app:9202022-09-25 07:20:54.905 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Undercounter, level: 21, rate: 4
app:9202022-09-25 07:20:54.876 pminfooff: Kitchen Main Light
app:9202022-09-25 07:20:54.822 pminfooff: Kitchen Sink Light
app:9202022-09-25 07:20:54.777 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Upper Cabinet, level: 1, rate: 4
app:9202022-09-25 07:20:54.746 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Fan Light, level: 1, rate: 4
app:9202022-09-25 07:20:54.721 pminfoActivating for All Modes
app:9202022-09-25 07:20:54.715 pminfoActivation Event: 'Activation Device' Kitchen Lights Mid-Low on
dev:9672022-09-25 07:20:54.692 pminfoKitchen Lights Mid-Low was turned on
app:9192022-09-25 07:18:36.829 pminfoAlready Activated
app:9192022-09-25 07:18:36.827 pminfoActivation Event: 'Kitchen Lights Mid-Bright' switch on
app:9192022-09-25 07:18:36.799 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Peninsula, level: 10, rate: 4
app:9192022-09-25 07:18:36.775 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Undercounter, level: 21, rate: 4
app:9192022-09-25 07:18:36.750 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Main Light, level: 25, rate: 4
app:9192022-09-25 07:18:36.726 pminfooff: Kitchen Sink Light
app:9192022-09-25 07:18:36.652 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Upper Cabinet, level: 9, rate: 4
app:9192022-09-25 07:18:36.627 pminfosetLevel: Kitchen Fan Light, level: 30, rate: 4
app:9192022-09-25 07:18:36.540 pminfoActivating for All Modes
app:9192022-09-25 07:18:36.529 pminfoActivation Event: 'Activation Device' Kitchen Lights Mid-Bright on
dev:9662022-09-25 07:18:36.463 pminfoKitchen Lights Mid-Bright was turned on
app:9202022-09-25 07:18:06.184 pminfoInitialized
app:9192022-09-25 07:17:34.726 pminfoInitialized

[bravenel]

@mikes

I then bounced between 3 different scenes - all now 3 show active (physical lights did change as expected)

I don't know, but it's impossible to figure out 3 things at once bouncing between them. I don't know are they are set up, or what is to be expected.

You need to bear in mind that the Apps page is not dynamic.

Please use screenshots for logs, not copy/paste. Your logs have too much going on to do it any other way.

[mikes]

Let me suggest that some non-breaking spaces ( ) be put in the log page, because the lack of spaces when copy/pasting is what makes it hard. Screenshots:

[mikes]

I'm curious about the groupState someOn. Some scenes turn some lights on, others off. So I guess that's where that's coming from - some are not on, although by intent. It doesn't seem particularly useful. Wouldn't a groupState allTrue make more sense (when all controlled lights have matching state)? Or maybe that's meant for something beyond my current understanding.

Edit: if you'd like me to go through a specific sequence and then get logs, just specify.

Setup is a GE/Jasco Dimmer, set up though Button Controller 5.1. 3 clicks down is button 6 in the driver. The Button Rule for that turns on the Kitchen Lights - Low Room Lights Activator Switch, which is the Activator for the Kitchen Lights Low - Room Lighting scene. Similar for the others.

[bravenel]

@mikes

I'm curious about the groupState someOn.

Some people for some use cases want the indicator to show if any light in a group is on, and by extension that if the indicator is off, all lights are off. Some want the indicator to show that all lights are on. Those two choices are obviously mutually exclusive, so the option is there to choose what you want to use the indicator for.

Those selections could have named: Indicator off only if all are off, and Indicator on only if all are on.

[mikes]

@bravenel

Some want the indicator to show that all lights are on. Those two choices are obviously mutually exclusive, so the option is there to choose what you want to use the indicator for.

OK, that makes sense. What doesn't is that I have it set for "Indicator only if All Set per Table", and when a scene is (really) active, i.e. all lights in the configured state, the groupState for the activator switch for that scene shows someOn. And, other activators which control the same set of lights, but aren't an exact match, also show someOn. So, there's no difference when a scene is actually active. Why not eliminate the some/all choice, and provide allOff, someOn, and allOn (or for less confusion, Active, for when the lamp state matches the scene exactly, even when the scene calls for some lamps to be off) states to look for? But, is it a partial (someOn) match for a scene which has some lamps configured off, when all lamps are off? The scene partially matches.

I'm equating the Active state with the "Indicator" being on. Is that correct? The docs for Room Lighting only include a brief mention, in Advanced Uses of Indicator. It also refers to "Indicator function of the Activation Device", but nothing labeled Indicator appears on the activator device page. I guess that groupState is involved, but then there would be 3 different ways to refer to the same thing - Active state, Indicator, groupState. ???

edit: I've now seen an allOn state (see below). But HE's behavior seems to assume that a scene is only turning lights on, and doesn't handle scenes where some lights are being turned off.

Or is the Indicator the switch: on (or off) state on the Activator device page? I see odd behavior there, too. If I activate a scene from that page by clicking On, for some it will briefly (10 seconds?) show groupState allOn, then change to groupState someOn. But the Activator switch on/off state isn't sync'd to the Active state shown in Room Lighting (i.e. only one of the Activator switches is currently on, but two room light scenes show active).

Oh, another issue. If I click on the Documentation link in the lower left of the page, when in Apps->Room Lighting->..., it links to http://docs2.hubitat.com/Room%20Lights which returns a Page Not Found. The correct link seems to be Room Lighting | Hubitat Documentation.

Gonna say, Room Lighting doesn't seem mature enough at this point to be deprecating Groups and Scenes.

Edit, not mentioned before, but I'm on 2.3.3.121.

edit some more: I think that it's only looking at lights on, and not offs or dimmer levels. e.g. this scene is shown as active, ons match, but offs and levels don't.

[bravenel]

@mikes

the groupState for the activator switch for that scene shows someOn

groupState applies to groups only, not to Scenes. That's why it is called groupState.

[mikes]

Clear as mud. The Room Lighting docs talk about groups, and give multiple links, but some don't work.

In describing creating Groups, you say we "may [emphasis added] want ... The option ... 'Activate as Group with ON Command' under Additional Options ... We can just send ON to all of them and take what we get. Or, we can activate them according to the Device Table on the main page. This option determines which to do... If we control the Activation Device any other way than ON, then the devices will do whatever we command the Activation Device (turn on to blue at level 15, turn off, whatever...)."

But that sounds exactly like a Scene, which you later describe by saying "For a Scene we want that option not to be selected, and we would use the Activator Device only for on/off."

From all that, it seems that the difference between a Group and a Scene is fundamentally how they're used/controlled, not how they're set up. With "Activate as Group with ON Command" disabled, is there any difference between a Group and a Scene when using the Activator for on/off? They seem identical with no way to distinguish between them. Is the same Room Lights "app" a Group when setting dimming from the Activator, but a Scene when using on/off?

I also can't find any documentation on the different Activator Types:

It appears they allow controlling things other than on/off for a Group (e.g. colors, dimming). The Room Lighting docs just mention "a special child device called a Room Lights Activator", and is silent on the others. Since "Room Lights Activator" seems to have all controls, why would one use something like "Room Lights Activator Switch", which only has on/off? Wouldn't the additional controls simply be ignored if they didn't apply?

[bravenel]

@mikes

With "Activate as Group with ON Command" disabled, is there any difference between a Group and a Scene when using the Activator for on/off?

Not if activated by the Activation Device. The primary difference between a group and a scene is that the intent of the group is that the devices follow the Activator Device for their settings, and with a a scene that they follow the settings in the table. That option controls what happens when ON is commanded to the Activator Device. With it deselected, there is no difference between the group and a scene as pertains to commanding ON to the Activator Device. The difference between the two would only arise when commanding the Activator Device with some other commands, such as setLevel, setColorTemperature, or setColor.

Room Lights automatically selects the appropriate Activator Device based on the capabilities of the devices to be automated. Another use for the Activator is to be used with Voice Assistants. If you want to be able to say, "Alexa, set Living Room to 40 percent", where "Living Room" is the Activator Device, then it has be a device that can respond to setLevel (etc.). See this post: Room Lights: Scenes, Groups & Voice Assistants

Those different drivers have the fairly obvious capabilities, except for "Room Lights Activator" that has all of the capabilities. Changing the driver usually isn't necessary.

@mikes

why would one use something like "Room Lights Activator Switch", which only has on/off? Wouldn't the additional controls simply be ignored if they didn't apply?

Yes, this is correct. The app chooses the appropriate driver IN CASE you want to control them with a Voice Assistant. Room Lights doesn't really know your intent. On the other hand, if all you have are switches and dimmers, there would be no point in creating a device that can set colors.

[hydro311]

The (hopefully!) final thing that's having trouble getting through my thick head is the "Off" component of the "Room Light Activator Switch" Type when used with a scene...

I totally understand turning "on" that Activator Device then sets the scene according to the table -- which is desired outcome. So all good there.

And I understand that the "Indicator for Scene Set" option should then take over as the primary UI-related indication of the Activator Device's status. I think that's correct, anyway?

What I'm still fuzzy on is how the "Off" portion of the Activator Device Switch Type plays in all of this since you don't usually turn a scene off the very same way you turned it on.

If the scene's devices change so that the "Indicator for Scene Set" option no longer matches the table, is that what actually turns the Device Activator to "Off" status WRT to it being a Switch Type?

Thanks again!

[bravenel]

@hydro311

What I'm still fuzzy on is how the "Off" portion of the Activator Device Switch Type plays in all of this since you don't usually turn a scene off the very same way you turned it on.

The older Scene-1.2 app works this way also. If you turn off the activator device, it turns off all of the Scene devices. Some people use this, and it aligns with how scenes work in Lutron systems as well.

You can use a scene just as something you set, not something you turn off, if that's how you want to do it.

[hydro311]

Right on... But my RL groups and scenes are getting reset somehow -- when I use the Activator Device to turn them on, they are somehow getting reset back to Off by something at some point since I've never actively done that specific "Off" action.

I'm just curious how those Activator Switch Types are getting turned off so that they're ready to go the next time I use them... I suspect it's driven by a change in the status of any of the devices so that the overall group/scene no longer matches, but I'm not sure.

Everything's working fine on my stuff -- this line of inquiry isn't driven by me troubleshooting anything; it's just a desire to better understand what's happening behind the curtain. Thanks!

[bravenel]

@hydro311

I suspect it's driven by a change in the status of any of the devices so that the overall group/scene no longer matches, but I'm not sure.

If you are using an indicator, that would do it.

[hydro311]

Perfecto - thanks for confirming!!

[bravenel]

If you don't want them to turn off, and still want an indicator, uncheck Turn Off column in the table.

[hydro311]

@bravenel -- perhaps this is crazy talk, but would it be possible to add a "Group: Indicator only if All are Off" option to this menu?

I have a couple of groups that just turn a bunch of different things off at bedtime or when away, and the "Scene: Indicator only if ser per table" option doesn't seem to work well in these particular cases... Thanks for your consideration!

[bravenel]

Indicator Group Any On is effectively Indicator All Off. When are all off, the indicator is off, and that is the only condition in which it is off.

[hydro311]

OK, thanks for confirming that -- I figured that may be true, so I tried it, but it didn't seem to work...

However, I admit my testing has been pretty sporadic so far -- I'll buckle down with some more thorough testing and see if I can't nail it down. Thanks.