Inovelli Blue

my fan switch is still at v1 :hot_face: I'm ready to test a newer version any time! :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
Waiting GIF

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All testing has shown the 3-way function is working great! And you have 3 different options.

  1. You can use a Blue Series with a standard 'dumb' 3-way switch, which gives you 3-way on/off capability.

  2. You can use a Blue Series with a White Series AUX switch, which completely mimics the Master switch (on/off/dimming/scenes/config) EXCEPT for the LED bar (White Series has no LED bar)

  3. You can use multiple Blue Series (with zigbee binding) and get full capability (including LED bar sync) across both switches.

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I have a wiring question for those here familiar with the Blue... And it's likely not unique to Blue, but since Blue sounds like it has nice no-neutral options, I figured it's a good example to use...

My small bathroom (1940s build) has a wall switch that powers a single outlet and 2 sconces either side of the mirror -- that's the only outlet and lights in the room.

Right now, I'm using Hue bulbs in the sconces and an Aurora over the switch - works great. But I'm curious if a can get a mains-powered solution instead...

That wall switch box has literally two wires -- and it's simply the Line hot wire for the downstream outlet & sconces cut so it could be controlled by the switch. No other wires in that box - no neutral, no ground (box is grounded via BX though).

Can you use a switch like the Blue with Line power alone? As in, no load and no neutral? I'd figure out a way to ground it to the box.

I'm wondering if I can hardwire that Line wire in the switch box back together using a 3-port Wago and then do a Line pigtail to the Blue so I can basically just use it as a scene controller for the sconce Hues (either by direct association or HE button controller)

Something tells me this won't work, but I don't see it yet...

Is this all crazy talk? Thanks!!

Not a safe idea, and yes current would flow between hot and ground if you connected the inovelli neutral to ground(NOT APPROVED), but it is violation of the NEC. I know you might not want to hear that, but being a wet place and not having proper grounding could cause a major problem, ie: electrocution or fire.

PS- if you just connect the only the hot to the switch it will not work, the current needs a path to flow between hot<->neutral. Using the ground as neutral, is not a safe idea. If you did this the bulbs would only be controlled via z-wave, you'd have to disable the relay in the switch.

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I definitely would not do anything with neutral/ground shenanigans. There would be no neutral whatsoever (existing or jerry-rigged).

But yeah, that is then the problem... Your comments got me thinking properly -- some kind of return is always needed, and my proposal has none. Well, it was fun while it lasted!

Thanks for the help!

Re-wire is what's needed for that to work. I've actually done something very similar in our bedroom with an LZW36 Fan controller. We bought a new ceiling fan that allows RF control only of its DC motor, so I couldn't use the LZW36 canopy module. Had to be the module included with the fan.

The solution for me since the house has neutrals at every switch, was to wire the fan load and the hot together and tap off that for the LZW36 line in. The LZW36 was then configured as a button device to trigger virtual switches, which then trigger a HomeKit automation, which then sends the appropriate HEX via a Homebridge-Broadlink plugin to a Broadlink RM 4 Pro that sends the captured RF signal to the fan :crazy_face: To my great delight, this all works consistently.

In your case, with a house that age and likely this problem repeated over and over throughout, I would invest in a Lutron Smart Bridge Pro and Pico remotes. In the end it's less expensive than rewiring, and significantly less work if you're doing the wiring yourself.

This is by far the wonkiest switch in my house (I've opened them all up over the years!).

I have Caseta happily running in almost all of my switches -- this bathroom switch and the stupid bathroom wiring is my white whale lol...

I've tried fishing another (neutral) wire around to it, but that BX makes it impossible to push it around a corner.

I'm admittedly too scared to use one of the existing wires as a sacrificial fish pull-line -- the wires are all old so if it broke while pulling, I'd really be up a creek. But I may still try that someday...

The Aurora has been great (in place for years now), so no complaints about it -- I'm just always looking for ways to get off battery stuff :wink:

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Not sure what BX is… but there is always an option to make a few holes in the wall (either in the bathroom or in the room(s) on the other side of the wall) and pass a new cable. Ideally, one that would come from the panel… It can be a bit more work, but patching holes isn’t that bad after a few times.

That may not be the most correct term, but I'm referring to flexible metal conduit / armored cable kinda stuff... In older (pre-romex) homes, it doubles as the grounding path too.

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I re-wired the house I sold in October (was all Knob & Tube - Circa 1926). I now know exactly why many electricians will say "Never again"!

In doing the work, the simplest method was to go up from the basement where the breaker panel was, to the first floor walls (before the basement was renovated :wink:). For the top floor, I went up to the attic along a single wall that was an easy straight-shot up, then down to the top floor room switches from the attic. It was back-breaking hard work. Never again!

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BX is correct. It was the improvement over knob and tube. Early versions didn't include a separate ground wire and the insulation from the conduit to the insulated conductors was paper. The use of the outer shield as a ground is no longer accepted by NEC, and thus the reason modern BX will contain a separate insulated ground wire. If you're re-wiring an existing circuit, the old two-conductor BX cannot be used.

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Right on - if I do do the pull someday, I'll most likely just try to pull some 14-2 romex through the BX from the outlet (which is closer to the switch than the lights) -- it's a short run (~6' or so), but there's one 90-deg corner that's a problem child.

Oh, the joys of old wiring!

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Where is the dual load zigbee switch on the timeline? I would buy 3 right away.

They have it on their roadmap (which was published some time ago so no way to know how accurate at this point). It seems the first is this 2-in-1 and then Eric has said the Fan switch (just fan not fan+light)...then after that they have 5-button switch, 5-button remote, regular paddle remote, and even a motion switch...THEN finally the dual switch and the similar fan+light switch. So for an actual ETA who knows but I’m not holding my breath for the dual or fan+light until summer 2023...but who knows how quickly things could move if they can resolve some of their supply chain issues.

The old bx armored wire in my house has the conductors insulated by cloth and rubber. Hate interacting with those wires, the rubber is so brittle at this point. Paper insulation sounds even worse!

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It's like knob and tube

Should probably create another thread or move to PM but I am curious what the wires are like in the outlet and sconces. Line power is going to one and curious if you can remove the switch from the outlet and wire just to power the sconces. I’d like to see pictures of those boxes to help determine. Then a no neutral switch like the Blue could work with the sconces while leaving the outlet I switched.

Those darn scones are a hassle in terms of oddly-sized, misaligned old wall boxes that require jerry-rigged crossbars to get fixtures in place. I've replaced the fixtures twice since moving in 14 years ago and about lost my mind both times.

The walls are old plaster/lathe, so not as easy to tear apart (replace boxes) and repair like drywall. I know it's possible, but I'm not very motivated for that particular project!

Anyway, I regret not taking pictures of the sconce boxes & wiring last time I had them open, but the outlet is relatively easy to get at... And I'm pretty sure the BX from the switch goes to it, so if I do end up fishing a new cable, I hope I could junction everything in the outlet box. I know that would blow apart NEC box-fill requirements, but that ship sailed long ago with most of the small old boxes throughout my house lol!

If I could just sneak a legit neutral into that switch box, I'd be all squared away -- I realize that's something most of us have muttered at some point in our HA careers :sweat_smile:

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In the middle of the night (but of course then!), it occurred that I have a hallway switch on the other side of the bathroom switch wall... Hat tip to @Sebastien for planting that seed in an earlier post.

I knew I had a neutral there, so I just needed to verify the bathroom line hot junctioned in that box too - it does (and it's all on the same 15A circuit - old house, so no unique bath circuit). Just a short ~6" run of BX betw/ the 2 boxes, so super easy to push a stub of white #14 thru to the bath switch box.

I'm ready to rock when my 5 Blues finally arrive -- those will take care of the few remaining switches in my house that weren't a great for for Caseta (various reasons).

Super excited!! :+1:

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May have missed it, but did you consider trying one of the no-neutral switches, like the one from GE/Jasco? Won't work for every application, but maybe an option for you, depending what your controlling w/it.

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