I just wanted to bring up a few points from a guy that is trying to do this for a living. Just a little background. I work with a few local electricians that don't want to be involved in setting up home automation which is awesome for me . Presently I only have about 50 accounts. My accounts are people that want their automation's to work no matter what. Which brought me to Hubitat. My go to is usually smarthings and webcore. . I know I have said the 2 dirty words on this forum. But I feel like I have to let you know of your down falls.
First off the interface. I am sorry but this is your biggest down fall. My customers, people that don't want to configure their own homes., They just want it to work and look good when showing it off to their buddies. Yes I can spend hours setting it up and getting it 90 percent there but then I get undercut by the guys that just go to smarthings and give them what their buddy have.
Second, when I work with smathings and webcore. I can easily setup webcore and import my pistons that are well written and just I have to change device variables to get those pistons to work. With rule engine I have to start from scratch each time and honestly that's taking money out of my pocket. Yes I can write the first and copy the rule but its still money out of my pocket because its slower.
Your developers are not the people that should be designing your user interface. I have seen it time again they know the code and think its all so simple but its not.
There will be a time when home automation is as main stream as electric in your house and the techs that install those automatons will make or break you. Presently if am quoting a job its not your product its you competitors product. Do I think your product is inferior to theirs? No I don't, I think you have a good product but it just takes to damn long to configure. Take the user interface out of the dev's hands they are obviously awesome at writing code but the interface not so much.
I appreciate what you have done this far but I really think you need to refocus on the big picture. If a tech can walk into a home and configure your product quicker than then others we will both win.
Thanks for your time and if I can be any help just let me know.
hmm - could you have a "base" system config as a saved system back, then restore the backup to the customers system. Thus "copy pasting" a base config.
In regard to the system layout/design. I have my gripes with it as well, but you could look at what some of the HE guys have done with sharptools - that you could also copy paste over for their "buddies" ?
I agree with @stevebott123, you need what we call a "Gold Build" a base to start. Use Virtual devices for the devices list and all the rules you want in the base, including all other applications. Then use the "backup" of that to restore on new systems.
How would you replace the virtual devices for real ones? You have to go into all apps and change them, right? That is a lot of work if you have more then 50 rules and other apps. I'm no system designer but I was thinking more in lines of a mapping between virtual devices and real ones, so you'd have one page to map the devices to their virtual counterpart. That way rules don't break when the physical devices is replaced by another ones. It even has benefits for the whole backup issue where you can't backup the z-wave devices in case you have to switch hub.
About the UI, I agree with @Jmaddox that it is far from appealing to outsiders. I'd never show the thing. But from a reseller point of view it's hard to explain why you'd chose this over a slick looking system. People with money tend to spend it on things they are proud to show to others (earning status points that way) with Hubitat you get a more stable environment, but you can't show that off to your friends.
You'd have to do that anyway, but at least the rules tyhemselves are already there. Half the fight.
Unless customers would buy the same devices, then you are kind of stuck.
I may have missed something with the rules. When I create a piston I always assign the devices to variables so I only have to change it one spot. So the work flow is import the piston change the device variables and am done. You would be surprised how many times you can reuse the piston most peoples needs are pretty much the same. Can you assign devices to variables and import export rules?
Another issue I have is remote admin. A lot of my accounts are summer homes and or homes that just have a laptop laying around but not on 24/7. Since everything I read strongly suggests not to open ports to remotely access the hub, What do others do to admin there hubs? other than VPN and remote desktop? Its really not feasible to have to visit a account for rule changes or adding new items each time. (when adding new devices the electricians usually install those devices or the customer plugs them in and I remotely discover and configure those items.)
No, there is no import/export function. You can take a backup of a system and restore it to a new system. However, you will have to go through each individual rule and fix it. Which might pose challenging as you won't see the original device names. As of right now, I don't see a clean solution for you to fulfill your use case.
VPN is the suggested path to use.
In regard to the layout and UI: Even the staff has acknowledged that the layout has it's limitations but at this time there are higher priority items to address on their list. I understand where you are coming from, you are looking for a product that does all of your needs and your client needs at this point and time. Given how long Hubitat exists, I'd say your still would consider them a startup and they can only do so much at a time. They have been pushing out updates and features on such a regular basis, I would challenge anyone to find a comparable release schedule with any of the other home automation systems.
Don't get me wrong, can the UI be improved? Absolutely!
Is it a do or die right now? I don't think so.
Statements like these are short sided. No one here in the community can say what Hubitat's plan is nor can you say that your view of the product has to be the way it has to go. I could argue that focusing on your views might be short sided as it diverts from other focus points. Again, don't get me wrong, I am not saying that you ARE wrong, I am just saying that you are focusing on your view only and can't say where Hubitat as a company has to go.
There is a reason why C4 systems are around, they made it "easy" for the contractor path to show a flashy system to a customer that doesn't want to understand what is behind there. But it also comes at a price. A price that was most likely used to develop such flashy UI and contractor needed functionality. I am sure that none of us want to pay of the price of a C4 system for Hubitat.
All I am trying to say is to give the team time and evaluate the product that you want to use before everyone goes all in. This way expectations can be met, you know what is supported and what not and no one will be disappointed.
I'm in agreement with @Jmaddox on his major points, because I have done that very thing with the installations that I have done. However, I would like to point out:
Inherently, the Hubitat platform & approach are superior because of the maintenance requirements of the competition; I can't tell you how many times I've made excuses for the competitors cloud being down, and that's why the rules didn't work
It's not only the lower installation cost that I'm selling - it's the long term integrity of the product. If it doesn't work 2-3 times per month, I'm called back by an angry client. I can't afford to take a hit to the reputation of my product. It has to work, first time, every time.
Yes, it's true that Hubitat has a long way to go before it's as polished or as finished or as slick as the competition; Nonetheless, I'm heartened by the willingness of Hubitat staff to squash as many bugs as possible as quickly as possible. With the competition, often there is no one to talk to.
Yes, I agree that there is some way to go before Hubitat can go toe to toe with the competition. (And, sometimes, I do get frustrated that they aren't there yet.)
Nonetheless, their focus on getting the right product with the right technical approach is a valid one, and the appropriate focus of limited resources, for the time being. There will come a time in the future when the focus should shift to making the product look nicer, and more polished, and faster to implement. I'm just not convinced that the time for that is now.
For a product that didn't even have an app 6 months ago, it has come leaps and bounds. And 6 months from now will be even better. The staff needed to accomplish a Control 4 style interface is beyond what the revenue stream a $99 product can provide. But what you get for your money frankly is off the charts. In both customer service and hardware. Consumers are figuring that out. So for those of us who don't need pizazz, but instead a rock solid product, Hubitat is perfect. There are a lot more average Joe's with a bend for DIY than millionaires who have no idea how to pair a light bulb. So what is being suggested is that more resources be spent for a much smaller market. Not a good business model.
Sorry for the rant, but had to get that off my chest.
Thank you for everyone's input. I wanted to cover all the bases and make sure I wasn't missing something. Just to be clear I was not comparing hubitat to Control 4 . Not sure where that came about. I will definitely continue to use hubitat in my home home system and keep interested customers updated of its progress.
I know a few people are experiencing hub crashes but since installing Hubitat back in May the hub and its software has performed spot on. I wonder how many people are assigning blame to the hub when the real issue is with the zwave and zigbee network. I use to blame SmartThings for problems like devices not turning on and off when they should and devices falling off the network. When I converted over to Hubitat I ported all my devices. Thinking all my random devices problems will go away, I find the same problem on Hubitat. It was never the hub or its software, it was caused by the devices, specifically, the bulbs!
Home automation is complex with many areas for breakdown. I think home automation will be common place in the not too distant future but like in the olden days of jumpers and dip switches of the PC era, things need to become more simple for the average person using it. Hobbyist are tinkerers but the common person just won't put up with that.
For main stream automation to work the system would just need to "work" with little to no interaction needed by the end user. Lights should just come on at a preset brightness when you walk into rooms. HVAC should be completely hands off for the most part. Alarms/Doors can be armed/disarmed by presence. Personally I see little use for dashboards for this type of end user. As long as Alexa/GH integration is there most people would be satisfied.
There really isn't anything else close to the price point of HE that offers local execution with good reliability. You want the end users calling you for adding additional automation for additional profit, not calling because multiple times a month the vendor's cloud system is down or their lights are not turning on because their internet is down.
I do agree however from an installer point of view that there should be a way to create a master template for installs. I believe the easiest place to start would be the ability to export rules. Also a way to administer multiple installs would be helpful.
@raidflex I do agree about not needing the interface to a point. When you first get into automation I believe it has a huge impact on what people buy. Also not all of the people that use home automation are DIY or want to tinker with it. Take my home for instance my wife, kids, in laws, friends they absolutely need a interface. Not to say it cant be done. I actually moved over to hubitat the past couple of days and will probably spend much more time than that making my own interface. But 90 percent of the people are not going to do that.
I really cant say anything bad about the availability that I have experienced. I am not sure if its my location or not but I can count on one hand the outages in the past 3 years. Even my internet is rock solid and rarely goes out. That goes for my accounts also. I ended up with the hubitat hub to add to the products I offer. The price point you speak of is for just the hub. The cost to install and configure it is the issue. Since rules need to be recreated and interfaces redesigned the cost goes up.
For my install I went with webcore. So far I have no issues and imported all my rules in as normal. I guess only time will tell. If webcore works out and plays nice for a few months I may start offering it as option.
ALL people who purchase Hubitat do, that is what it was designed and marketed for. "Installers" that satisfy those who don't want to DIY, use Control4, Savant, and others as that is what THEY were designed and marketed for that purpose.
You trying to expect a $75 hub and a 2 year old platform to be comparable to a multi-thousand dollar multi year designed specific purpose platform is a bit absurd and unrealistic
I think the points you make are quite valid. Just one exception, it's not that the problem is the developers designing a UI, it's simply the amount of time we've been at this. We first needed to get a solid platform, as without that, UI is meaningless.
Having said that, we are moving in a direction that will support an installer's needs better. It turns out the people who are totally new to home automation have needs that are similar to those of installers -- including a quick way to get a home up and running without a lot of labor.
Thanks for your suggestions, they are well thought out. Stay tuned for more in this area.
Thank you for seeing my point. And understanding am not bashing the product. You had me when my Nodemcu's all showed up under a hue hub and worked without a additional line of code or another app!
So its been a little over a week. Actually a day over to be exact since I first posted. After I made the post I moved everything over to hubitat. Just over 70 devices. I had a additional 15 devices to add for my rental but wanted to hold off until I got my home setup. I went the easy route and loaded up webcore since I already have all my rules from smarthings and it would make for a easy move. Moving my devices went great I loaded up my zigbee outlets first and moved onto sensors and bulbs (old house no neutrals) no issues what so ever joining the devices to the hub. Got everything joined in less than a day and started on the automation.
Day 2 I noticed my schleage locks took forever to respond. But I had enough to do to get my rules in place. Imported my rules from webcore and had everything working Just as it was on smarthings! Nice!
Day 3 Woke up to nothing responding no big deal reboot the hub everything comes back. Everything just needs a sec to mesh together it happens. About 3 pm call from the wife lights are not coming on with the dash board or motion. Reboot again some devices begin to work. lost 2 zigbee bulbs.
Day 4
Damn they must of been right about webcore! unistall webcore and use motion lighting to get the basics working. Before I crash I walk from room to room and lights are coming on and going off as they should nice!
Day 5
wake up hub is unresponsive again! Reboot again! am down 4 bulbs now? WTF!
Day 6
spend way to much adding devices again and moving zigbee outlets around, trying to get rule engine working now because something is bringing this hub down.
Day 7
One last lat shot at webcore because its the only thing that seem to work the most reliable.
Today
Come home to my zigbee network gone! Don't remember reading anything about webcore wiping out devices.... No bulbs no sensors just gone. Hub is responsive zwave works (except for locks of course). Think to myself this all worked before hubitat. Nothing added nothing removed. Drove to best buy and bought a ver 3 smarthings since I have to redo everthing again I might as well upgrade! And to to think I would of saved 10 bucks if I did this from the beginning,
I now see your point on not having time for a interface because you have a a lot to do on the back end. I saw no benefit to your product what so ever. My automation's ran no faster than smarthings and most important smarthings was stable! I never got into the heavy automation's because I could not make the simple ones work constantly. After reading through this forum the past week and seeing the arrogance of some posts made by staff members it was a easy decision to go back to smarthings asap! I haven't experienced this much hassle since x10. I wouldnt recommend this product to my worst enemy! Add if I had a client that like to tinker It would be home assitant or openhab at least those are open source and you would be contributing to a community not a company knocking off a stable product! I will be sure to leave my thoughts on this device on the few youtube and amazon reviews I found.
"I think the points you make are quite valid. Just one exception, it's not that the problem is the developers designing a UI, it's simply the amount of time we've been at this. We first needed to get a solid platform, as without that, UI is meaningless." That is the most realistic comment I have seen on this product!
I promise you I'm not trying to be antagonistic but you came across pretty arrogant and IMHO a bit nasty in your above post. We have a pretty helpful community that may have had some tips to help you get a stable mesh going. Did you ask ANYONE for help before making your final decision? If not, it's hard to give any validity to your claims or feel any empathy for your frustrations. Just the simple opinion from a community member.
Hey @Jmaddox,
Can I ask what type/brand of bulbs you were using / motion sensors ?
I think the idea that you can be up and running in a week is a little unrealistic. I have had similar problems (abet - I like to tinker) that you have described about and that was due to a single ZLL zigbee bulb in my mesh/network chewing up the signals.
i think half your week looks like you playing/forcing in your webcore rules then not troubleshooting the root of the issue.
When you say on day 5 hub is unresponsive, do you mean your motion lighting or do you mean you couldnt access your hub ?
Day 6 - your zigbee outlets, do you mean repeaters ?
When you say "zigbee network gone" did you check the zigbee IP address table to see what is repeating to what ?
To be honest, it sounds/looks like you tried to jam webcore down HEs throat, but overlooked what the zigbee devices were doing, smashed the hub (rebooted) a bunch of times hoping that would fix the issue. Got annoyed and tried to jam webcore down HEs throat again and then got fedup and went and bought a ST hub - all in a week.
I realise you are probably very fluent in ST/webcore, but I dont think that transfers the knowledge straight to HE and when you couldnt get it to work in a very small timeframe you chucked in the towel.
There are many people here to help you fine tune your system (but by the look of it, you are a touch impaitent) and have a hangup about HE saying it is faster than ST. I mean the main point for me is that HE can work offline VS ST.
But did you post on the forums and ask for help, or look for the zigbee table to see if there was an issue ?
I have not been on the ST forums, but do the creators actively post / interact with the ST community directly ? On HE they do.
Im sorry you've had this experience with your hub, but I also dont think you've really given it a proper chance. Then to go on like a schoolkid saying you are going to badmouth the product on every platform you can find... Really? seems a touch juvenile.
What exactly would you call this post that YOU are posting?
Do you not find it odd that YOUR results are completely opposite than the thousands currently on here? What is the only variable in that equation? Also, where at on this list List of Compatible Devices - Hubitat Documentation does it state "If it worked on Smartthings"? Answer: Nowhere.
Please be sure to include YOUR company name so that we are aware.
