First Days Migrating from Wink to Hubitat, Successes, Failures, and Solutions to Help Others…

🎬 Get Started Migrating to Hubitat
41

Way too small of market. A consumer device like that would be paying twice for Zigbee and Zwave licence/certifications. Two chipsets. Two antennas. Complex instructions for having to be paired twice using different methods/UI pathways. Then they sell 1/50th of any other repeater, so the costs are even higher. And the cheap consumer smarthome bastards would just complain that why would I buy this for US$150-$200 when I can get separate zigbee and zwave repeaters for less than half that.... I think the only company that would bother at this point is someone like Ring to provide inter compatibility between their locks (zwave) and light (zigbee) networks....but still easier/cheaper to just market 2 modules.

Also: Matter will fix all this :slight_smile:

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42

Ahhh. that makes sense. Didn't know those frequencies and logic were still under patent and needed to be licensed... Probably just so they could put the name on the packaging... Grr....

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@HubiNubi if I were you I would strategically replace some of the oldest zwave devices with zigbee versions, especially the plug ins and those become your zigbee repeaters building out your zigbee mesh. By doing this you don't need to buy purpose built repeaters either. Most of the plugins work great as repeating devices (except for say Ikea - they have a stupid low limit of children they can repeat... 6?)

I personally have all my hardwired switch/dimmers devices as zwave, those support my zwave sensors well. The plugin outlet modules I have mostly as zigbee, supporting my zigbee sensors. I visualize them as my "upper" (switch height) and "lower" (outlet height) networks per floor. There are exceptions as needed and as soon as Inovelli releases their zigbee dimmer I'll be installing one or two of those as needed but this has worked for me. I have both zwave and zigbee leak sensors, but all new ones are zigbee. Battery motion sensors are all zigbee. Temperature sensors are all zigbee,

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44

FYI - all z-wave chips come from a single source (Silicon Labs). There are more sources for zigbee chips.

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45

Which can in some cases lead to compatibility issues... :slight_smile:

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46

Not strictly true. The C7 is z-wave+V2 so actually that part of the hub can be joined as a secondary controller. It should repeat z-wave, not sure what you would see in the hub Device page mind, probably nothing. I think I remember someone tested it though?

Obviously ZigBee is a difference story.

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47

Agreed. Although I don't know anyone who has successfully used a C-7 as a secondary controller. Nonetheless, as you point out, if it joins the primary controller, it should work as a z-wave repeater,

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48

Since you can set up polling from Rule Machine I would think you should be able to set up any type of scheduling you want.

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49

Certainly could. But without finessing the conditions like @coreystup described (eg. X seconds of network silence)

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50

@oldcomputerwiz and @aaiyar . Interesting. Ok, I just discovered that in Rule machine... Any idea how often "Z-Wave Poller" runs? If it's continuously and I don't need or want that kind of accuracy, is there any reason why I couldn't/shouldn't delete the app and just create a rule to run hourly (assuming that's less often than the poller", and poll all z-wave devices (as I'm currently having the Z-Wave Polling do?).

I'm not seeing any major slowdowns or anything, but in seeing the conversations, the only reason I'm thinking something like this would be a good idea is to reduce resource usage on the hub. But, if you guys think it's fine to leave it as is with the Z-Wave Poller running then I can just do that...

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The best way to do this is to come up with a plan that replaces your legacy z-wave devices that require polling with current versions over time.

I have ~30 legacy z-wave devices that don't require polling, and I have no intention of replacing them. But I did replace the ones that required polling. That was sufficient to make my z-wave mesh very responsive.

I also replaced some Z-Wave contact sensors and all Z-Wave motion sensors, but that was for a different reason - their reporting response was slow, and I wanted to speed up my automations.

Edit:

I want to expand on "legacy". The 300-series Z-wave chips used in GE Z-Wave switches/dimmers became available in 2003. That tech is now 20 years old!

20 years ago, we used 802.11b WiFi routers that provided 11 Mbps throughput, and I still had a tube television in one bedroom. That's how long ago 20 years is! I would be shocked if there was a single person on this community who still had an 802.11b WiFi router with WEP authentication providing WiFi at home.

Z-Wave+ (500-series) came out in 2013 - so that tech has now been around for ~10 years. Z-Wave+ v2 (700-series) came out in 2019, and 800-series chips are available in quantity as of this year.

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52

Alright. I have two hubs running now, one all z-wave and the other to run all zigbee water sensors, valves, sirens, etc. HE made it very easy to add another hub. As soon as I logged in and registered it, it showed up in my list of registered hubs. I just made sure it was on the same subnet as the other hub, logged into both of them and made sure the Hub Details pages were near identical besides the names. Then, went into hub mesh clicked enable under active hubs on each. Generated tokens, clicked the unlock buttons, typed in the opposite hubs token, and BOOM, hubs were connected... VERY easy... I shared a couple of devices, created some rules, and done. I installed the drivers for both the leaksmart sensors and leaksmart valve found here in the community forums, and got that up and running in very short time...

WHICH BRINGS ME to my next question on opinions and migration to see what ya'll think...

Should I use Hubitat Safety Monitor (HSM), OR, Basic Rule Making to handle Water Alert and Situation Management in the house? I honestly see Benefits and drawbacks for each...

In poking around HSM, here is what I can gather...

On the plus side, it looks easy to configure and straight forward. I can detect water leaks, get push notifications to my phone, generate audio and siren alerts, AND, turn off my main water valve, while ALSO turning off my z-wave switches for my whole house water circulator and tankless water heater, all simultaneously, very cool.

It also appears that I can do some kind of custom monitoring (which appears to be in addition to the other set up and happening concurrently rather than instead of [can someone confirm this?]) where I can set up a delay when the water is wet for sirens, alerts, and switches, but NOT THE VALVES. I think you could conceivable also do a water dry setup to turn sirens off, switches back on, etc, but again, NO VALVE MANAGEMENT.

And, that's it. No other customizations that I can see. SO, to recap, it appears you can have valves shut-off, and then setup customizable delays or no-delays on alerts and switches.

What do I see are the drawbacks (if someone can confirm these assumptions)? Well first it's another app running in addition to Basic Rules so it takes up system resources... Next, you can't customize valve closure delays OR, set up HSM to continually monitor the situation and make appropriate adjustments...

Which leads me to basic rules... My thoughts are, with basic rules, I can DO ANYTHING I could possibly conceive. PLUS, it would utilize less resources by having one less App running (again, can anyone confirm this assumption)?

So why would I choose Basic Rules instead of HSM based on my assumptions? Well, here's what I'm trying to do that I perceive to be good ideas. Let me know your thoughts folks, I want to make sure I've thought of everything here...

Here's how I would set up the rule...

  1. Water is detected.
  2. Sirens On, Send Text Notification, Sonos Text-To Speech "Water Alert" Voice Message.
  3. Wait 120 second AND Water is Not Detected.
    3a. Sirens Off, Send Text Notification, Sonos Off.
    END.
  4. OR, Water is still detected.
    4a. Water Valves Closed. Tankless Water Heater Off. House Water Circulator Off.
    4b. Sonos Text-To-Speech "Closing Valves and Shutting Off Water" Voice Message.
  5. THEN, Wait UNTIL, Water is NOT Detected, AND, Last Water Detecting Water Sensor batteries ARE NOT <=30 AND STILL Reachable on Zigbee/Z-wave Pings.
    4a. Water Valves Open. Tankless Water Heater On. House Water Circulator On.
    4b. Sonos Text-To-Speech "Opening Valves and Restoring Water" Voice Message.
    END.

Now, why do I like/want to do something like this? I have lots of water sensors in the house, and, we clean and mop the house weekly or bi-weekly... The old wink system couldn't do this and so every time we would mop and I'd forget to pick the sensors off the ground, the water would get cut off, oxygen introduced into the lines, and, then 30 minutes of turning the valve back on, sirens off, and opening every fixture in the house to get the air out of the lines...

Nice thing about this, is logic like this would ensure it's NO ACCIDENT. So, for basic cleaning, it would give you a two minute warning in case you got the sensor wet to dry off the sensor and put it back how you found it. After two minutes, it would assume it's no accident and go to DEFCON 1. Then, it would simply wait until the threat is gone and turn everything back on...

I ASSUME everything after the bold black "AND" could not be done in rule making and would have to be done in something more advanced. I also would have no idea how to do it as I don't know coding/logic/syntax for this system yet but would love for any help our pointers on how and if that's doable? But, even without what comes after that "AND", I still perceive that its more powerful and useful logic than what is available in HSM...

SO, please do let me know your thoughts, ideas, and opinions everyone. I'd really appreciate it!

Thanks again for everyone's continued engagement. It's an AWESOME community here!

53

Can I suggest starting a new thread that is focused on this question (HSM v/s Rule Machine for water valve management)?

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54

HAH! I have 802.11a in my shop because a couple of old devices won't talk to anything else and even have character limits on the WEP. LOL.

But WOW! I had NO idea Z-Wave was that old! Good to know! I guess my tech is pretty advanced then! HAH.

I think I was still on 56.6k dialup at that point taking an hour to get a song from Napster while constantly reading news about Metallica whining about Napster. hahahaha.

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55

Sure! Is there an easy way to port it over, or, do I just delete the post and start a new topic?

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56

It is actually older. 100-series chips became available in 1995 1999, if memory serves me correctly.

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57

Adding apps and running those individual apps takes up very little resources. I would encourage you to not focus on that. I currently actively run 53 different apps with I don't know how many children and probably around 40-50 rules with around 140 devices (zigbee, z-wave, clear connect, wifi, and virtual)

As long as my DB isn't being chewed up it's fine.

Healthy meshes are needed

Don't use energy reporting set at ever 3 seconds

Be mindful of rogue devices

These thing will keep your hub running fine regardless of how many apps/devices installed...

Here is where mine currently sits and it's very happy

image

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58

Yeah RM is your friend there - you will have more flexibility I think.

Also consider getting a "Flume" if you don't already have a water flow monitoring device.

There is a community driver for it. Works well and no plumber required. This can detect unusual changes in water flow based on meter activity. You can find the driver in the HPM.

edit: funny story, we are currently going through a renovation where we are rebuilding a new front stoop. Last Wednesday, out of the blue HE/Flume sent me a notification and shut off our water main (note: I have rules and a smart shutoff valve).. couldn't imagine what was going on, ran around the house looking for water leaks (all my water sensors were okay - but worried about pipe breaks in the walls etc) until I realized, duh.. the mason was using a hose and our water to hydrate the concrete etc.
:man_facepalming:

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59

In general the built in apps like Rule Machine, Simple automations rules, Motion Lighting, Basic rules are very optimized. They add very little load to the hub. For these apps just find the one that works for you the best.

I have 28 apps, loaded and RM has 34 different rules. HSM is great as long as it meets all your needs and I use it as well. I use to maintain an app in Smartthings for their Smartthings ADT Alarm panel called ADT Tools. The whole purpose behind that app was to add functions to the Security system. Every single thing I coded to add functionality to that app in Smartthings was already in HSM. I am very impressed by it all that it gives you. That said If you need a delay and that isn't possible with HSM then Rulemachine is a great option. I would ask you to think about though how much damage can be caused in the delay you are proposing.

If you load allot of custom apps,wifi, cloud integrations, those are the ones to watch, but you will generally get some signs about the load being induced by them. So until you have something being a little odd then don't worry about it. Just get familiar with the logging screen.

If you click on "Logging" in the left menu, you will get the screen shown below. Once that is up you can click on "Device Stats" or "AppStats" to see how busy individual apps/Rules, or devices are on the system. That screen can be your friend if you are concerned about load being placed on the system.

image
image1369×791 81.8 KB

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60

@mavrrick58 , indeed. 2 minutes is a long time, but probably faster than I would get to a leak anyway. Just hate false alarms, but, yep, it's a risk...

Question for anyone... As I'm trying to work through this stuff and learn the coding syntax and try to develop the stuff after my bold "AND", is there a command prompt window somewhere in Hubitat where I can communicate with any and all devices and run and execute commands and logic directly? Or, do I have to write and up, install the up, and run the app for every single command/script I want to try and test out?