NGL, I did not read the entire thread. The Yellow/Orange/Blue wires look like they are just switch loops so no neutral and you also said they are a reduced voltage (I would suspect they are actually 12-24v).
That being said, a ZEN51 would be able to switch it BUT you line voltage to power it. Not sure if you could wire it where the control module is instead instead of in the wall? You would have access to line voltage there. The IN/OUT on the ZEN51 is a relay of some sort. Possibly the ZEN52 (double) could also work but I would have to confirm if the outputs are tied to the S1/2 or the L 120v input. To fit the double into the same small housing it does not have dedicated inputs like the ZEN51.
I would install the Zooz zen16 at the ERV (itās very compact) and run low voltage lines to a standard dual paddle single gang switch. The zooz can take switch inputs (no voltage, just open and close) to control the relays. You can also set up those switch inputs as momentary switches which might work better to just toggle the relay state each time they are pressed. That would give you both manual and automatic control. You need isolated relays for both circuits to the ERV controls. Devices like the nano and zen51 wonāt work as they are designed to power a 120V device via line and loadā¦they would cook your ERV controls.
Panasonic ERVs are a bit weird as Iām pretty sure they all use 120V at the control wiringā¦it has come up at the green building journal quite a few times.
Based on all the information you provided, yes, youāll see some benefit from automation :-). Iāve found that turning off our whole house system (which happens when co2 levels averaged over 3 CO2 sensors goes below 450 ppm) when weāre away, can result in elevated radon levels in the basement. Iāve changed the automation rules around co2 a bit so the system just stays at the base ventilation rate of 50 CFM longer. It basically has 4 balanced profiles at 50,60,75 and 90 CFM. Hubitat manages the two EC fans on the HRV to those profiles depending on the 3 AQ sensor readings for CO2 and VOC. Thereās a fifth profile that manages make up air for the kitchen exhaust via the HRV.
I would install the Zooz zen16 at the ERV (itās very compact) and run low voltage lines to a standard dual paddle single gang switch.
Thank you. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply because you seem to really understand this stuff (I understand enough to get in a lot of trouble) AND you have first hand experience with the Panasonic FV-04. Per your advice, I will stay away from the Zen51 and the Nano, as I have ZERO interest in damaging the ERV controls. I greatly appreciate the heads up!
The ERV is wall mounted, with finish gyp both sides of the wall. I cannot fathom where I would install the Zen 16, nor how I would get the required USB or 12-24v power supply to it that the Smartest Home site says it needs...When you say "install at the ERV" do you mean inside the ERV housing? I'd be concerned about having exposed 100 or 120v wiring for the Zen16, and no idea how I would power it if installed in the ERV.
The only install location I can come up with is the attic above the ERV, where there is a power source for it and plenty of space to put it in a box. But that mean fishing wire from the attic to the ERV Jbox, and back down, with connections in the very difficult to access ERV jbox. That is probably doable, but it is a MUCH larger project than I can embark on now. Was really hoping for something I could either install behind the wall switches or replace the switches with...
I have no idea how the ZEN51 could damage anything, it has a switch that triggers a open/close relay similar to the ZEN16/17. That being said, I do think the ZEN16 or ZEN17 is a better fit for this application.
I think the issue with the Zen51 is that the dry contact relay takes signal from a switch, which in turn passes power to a light for example via the 120V LINE, LOAD connections, which also power the Zen51. This is not an isolated dry contact relay as the switch signal is 0 volts...just open/close.
If there is a way to wire the Zen51 to 120V, and have a completely isolated relay that is ok with 120V, then you could use it...I just did not see the wiring diagram use case for this on their site. Looking at the Zen51 wiring diagram, it looks like OUT will pass 120V to the device when the relay is energized, via the L terminal (which also powers the Zen51)...and the load device would need a connection to neutral. I can't see how you could use this with the Panasonic control...
With the Zen16, you command the dry contact relay on/off via automation, or a switch connected to the switch ports. The device is powered separately via USB and none of the relays/switches need to see LINE/LOAD connections from 120V. The relays can pass power up to 15 amps, but they don't use 120V to power themselves, and don't need a neutral connection.
I may have my wires crossed, but I've always used relays like the LFM20 and ZEN16 for these control applications, and devices like the Aeotec Mini, Zen51 to power lights via 120V in the box.
I don't think this is the case. The L and N leads are to power the device/relay only and the IN/OUT leads are dry. To power a light using this device, one needs to make it "wet" by connecting IN to L and OUT to the load, as shown in the wiring diagram Zooz provides. The S is indeed line-switched. I believe it is designed this way to simplify a three-way setup for a typical lighting application. You don't have to use S.
In contrast, the ZEN52 double-relay version doesn't have independent inputs so one should assume that the input on the load side of the relay is wired to L internally.
That makes sense...I was trying to figure though why the physical switch is pig tailed to the hot. If IN/OUT is a separate relay, then you are correct in that this device x 2 would work for the ERV control.
I've asked TheSmartestHouse.com about the Zen51 dry contacts. Will update when I get a response
I saw this on the Zen16 vs Zen17 page: "The switch inputs on ZEN16 are dry contact only which means you can't connect any voltage to them"
a. So I would wire direct from the two dumb switches to two of the the Zen 16 switch inputs and it has no voltage? If so, can I use the approx 7' long 3 conductor (BWR + ground) Romex that is already run or do I need new wiring? If I cannot use the Romex wiring already in the wall to the switches, this turns into a project with drywall work and ZERO HAF even with the Zen16 installed in the attic.
b. Then I would connect the ERV control wiring, which Panasonic Tech Support support stated is 100v, to the R1 & R2 ports of the Zen 16?
I was thinking maybe it was on the S1/2 inputs but I think you are right it is on the L, because it can be used without the switch connected. So yes ZEN52 can only be used for line voltage, fans or lights typically. The ZEN51 should work for just about anything but depending on the type of relay not sure how much of a load it can handle.
*Should also note I have both of these on my test "bench" (piece of cardboard on top of some bins) right behind me if there is anything I can test out. I only have a multimeter though, nothing too fancy.
@jtp10181@denwood@hubitrep
I just received an email from thesmartesthouse.com (Zooz sellers) about the Z51 stating:
"Yes, ZEN51 is a dry contact relay. The ZEN51 needs 120VAC to be powered on L and N pigtails, so you would need to power up ZEN51 from [the light switch also in that box but on a different circuit]
Then IN and OUT pigtails is a dry contact relay. Totally isolated from L and N pigtails."
So I'm going to order 2 and see if I can make this work...and pray I don't blow up the Panasonic controls...
Please let me know if you see any problem with this plan....
@calinatl , I think you're good there. If in doubt, just wire it up (don't connect the ERV to IN/OUT) and check voltage across IN/OUT. It should be zero as you toggle the relay on/off via Hubitat. Based on that reply you got, and what @jtp10181 has said already, I'm about 99% confident you are ok. This information is good to know as I may use this in future projects. Powering from 120V is a lot easier in many situations. This is basically a nice replacement for the LFM20, which was unreliable and about six times the size.
Glad to help (and get educated on a new relay option too). The Zen16 is great, but the external power requirement makes integrating into an existing box quite difficult.
Thanks to @hubitrep and @jtp10181 for setting me straight on this device
Was able to wire this up with two Zen51's. Zooz support was very helpful and gave specific directions. They confirmed that not only are the IN and OUT pigtails a dry contact relay totally isolated from L and N pigtails, they later confirmed the IN and OUT pigtails are also isolated from the S pigtail.
It was a bit a difficult to fit two Zen51's in the box, but managed to do it.
So far it seems to work great. The ERV can now be controlled from either Hubitat or from the wall switches - both work equally well.
ETA: thanks to @hubitrep and @denwood and @jtp10181 and the others who contributed to the above discussion. Not only did it help me automate the Panasonic ERV to be able to control it with Hubitat, I also learned from the discussion. Much appreciated!
Per post 27 above, I got this wired up and initially I could control the ERV from either the wall switch or the Hubitat.
Suddenly it stopped working from the wall switch. I have definitely not rewired anything, and I don't think I changed any of the parameters. Does anyone have any idea what could cause this, and more importantly, how to fix it?
If you are using my driver turn on debug or trace logging. If the device is sending any messages they will get logged. Also check the connections, maybe something came loose?
@jtp10181
I don't think I'm using your driver. On the device page, under type, I selected "Zooz Zen51 Dry Contact Relay" since that matches the hardware.
Re: checking connections - do you mean the physical wiring connections in the box?
That is the system driver you are using, you could turn on debug logging there see if you get anything. Not sure if all the settings are exposed on the system driver, but you could always try mine to confirm all the settings: [DRIVER] Zooz Relays Advanced (ZEN16, ZEN17, ZEN51, ZEN52)
Another follow up to this post.
The two Zen 51's are working great to control the two functions of the dumb double paddle switch
Standby/On
Hi/Low
The challenge is the switch positions. The automation rules are fairly good at turning the ERV on and off, but then the buttons on the dumb single gang dual switch don't match the positions I've trained my household on. While it seems intuitive to me that if the ERV is totally silent, it is off, no matter where the switch is, others in my household think if the switch position is where they were trained for the unit to be on, "it is just operating very quietly today."
In addition to the retraining of my household, which is under way, I'm aware of three other potential solutions but would appreciate some feedback
Totally automate this so switches are never used so the physical position of the switch does not matter. Working on this (see below) but not sure it is attainable.
Replace the single gang regular dual switch (maintained contact?) with a single gang momentary dual switch. After much googling, I've found a Legrand Pass & Seymour TM811-DTMOW that might work - just not sure because the spec sheet calls is a "Double Throw Momentary Contact." Doesn't double throw mean that if one is on, the other is off? So every time I put the speed on high, the standby/on would immediately go to standby? Or am I reading too much into this? Spec Grade Decorator Momentary Contact Switch
If this switch is not correct, does anyone have a link to the existence of a Code Compliant single gang, double switch where both are momentary?
Both 1 and 2 above, which would be ideal, but might be overkill.
With the two Zen51's, the box is tight. Not sure if a momentary switch would be deeper and thus take up more space than the standard big box store single gang dual paddle in there now. To make it fit, I could remove the Zen 51 controlling the Hi/Low fans speed which would free up some space in the box, but it turns out to be somewhat useful.
The switch you linked to, I am not sure what is going on there. It looks like maybe the top/bottom are split and they are both basically buttons. Since it says it is momentary and a DT it should basically act like two buttons. When you press and hold the top , the top contact is closed, when you let go it opens. Same would happen on the bottom.
@jtp10181
Yes, what I have now is a double paddle in the space of one switch. But they are manual switches so they hold their position. So a family member might turn the top switch from Standby to On, but then the Zen51 turns it off. The person goes back the next day and sees the switch in what they understand to be the On position, even though the ERV is now off. And to manually turn it on, they have to flip the switch from the on position, to the off and then back to the on.
Same with the bottom switch, except that one is just fan speed.
You wrote
"when you press and hold...the contact is closed, when you let go it opens."
Perhaps I don't understand what momentary means. I thought switches like the Inovelli are momentary for their on / off function, because you press up and it goes on, but the physical switch goes back to a neutral position. You don't have to hold it. The advantage is there is no physical indication of whether the switch is on or off. I'm looking for that same function but with two switches in one "slot"...
