Can't be this hard

jonasd1 · March 19, 2020, 1:52am

Man - i used to think I was smart, lol. Not with this stuff, geez. I am actually a Sr Network Architect with multiple certifications but I feel like a dummy in this group. Here's the output again.

Parent child parameters
EzspGetParentChildParametersResponse [childCount=2, parentEui64=0000000000000000, parentNodeId=65535]

Child Data
child:[KD - Garage Sensor, F8E4, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[JD Garage Sensor, EBAE, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]

Neighbor Table Entry
[Front Porch Light 1, 29FF], LQI:251, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:7
[Outside Light 2, 329C], LQI:253, age:1, inCost:3, outCost:0
[KD Light 2, 4AE0], LQI:239, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:3
[Smart Plug 3, 582F], LQI:255, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:3
[Nursery Light 1, 59E0], LQI:239, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:3
[Outside Light 1, 6999], LQI:223, age:5, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Family Room Light, 82FA], LQI:232, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7
[KD Light 1, 924B], LQI:251, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:3
[SmartPlug-Tradfri-2, 9BFA], LQI:249, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:7
[Nursery Light 2, C783], LQI:244, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:3
[Man Cave Lamp-Flex, C8EC], LQI:216, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:4
[Man Cave Lamp, D787], LQI:243, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:2
[Backyard Light 2, EB16], LQI:254, age:5, inCost:1, outCost:3
[Basement Hallway, EBD0], LQI:228, age:3, inCost:5, outCost:4
[Front Porch Light 2, F6D3], LQI:223, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Backyard Light 1, F943], LQI:253, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:3

Route Table Entry
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Parlor Light, CF4E] via [Front Porch Light 2, F6D3]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Dining Room Light 2, F5B2] via [Family Room Light, 82FA]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Screen Porch 2, BE97] via [Backyard Light 2, EB16]
status:Active, age:32, routeRecordState:2, concentratorType:Low Ram, [Smart Plug 3, 582F] via [Smart Plug 3, 582F]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Basement Hallway 2, E2B3] via [Basement Hallway, EBD0]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Front Porch Light 1, 29FF] via [Smart Plug 3, 582F]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Man Cave Lamp, D787] via [Man Cave Lamp, D787]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:2, concentratorType:Low Ram, [Smart Plug - UL1, E993] via [Smart Plug 3, 582F]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Outside Light 2, 329C] via [Front Porch Light 2, F6D3]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Basement Door 4, AD6D] via [Family Room Light, 82FA]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Nursery Light 1, 59E0] via [Nursery Light 1, 59E0]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Foyer Light, ED56] via [KD Light 1, 924B]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [KD Light 1, 924B] via [KD Light 1, 924B]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Nursery Light 3, F968] via [KD Light 1, 924B]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Backyard Light 2, EB16] via [Backyard Light 2, EB16]
status:Unused

jonasd1 · March 19, 2020, 1:56am

Outside Light 2 is a GE Bulb that you guys have all said are bad...I've got replacement Sengleds' coming in the mail i Just bought to replace those 2 for now. F968 is a Cree bulb...Nursery Light 3....but now it's not there. How in the world can you tell the Tradfri can you tell their state? I'm ready to learn this stuff! Thanks in advance. SMART PLUG 3 SEEMS quite active, that's the 1 PEANUT plug I decided to keep. It's on the top level of the house. 3 Cree lights up there, (Nursery Light 1/2/3), 2 GE link lights (KD1/KD2), 2 SENGLED lights (Mommy Light/Daddy Light), and a Z Wave motion sensor.

The TradFri's are on the 2nd level one towards the front of the house and 1 towards the back.

Tony · March 19, 2020, 2:30am

I feel your pain LOL. When my 'real' job ended several moons ago, I took another trying to transition a token ring backbone on a campus network to OC-3 ATM just before gig Ethernet came out and relegated those technologies to the junkpile. Never had time to actually do much work back then; too busy reading and taking courses on the next new thing. It's a treadmill...

Looks like your hub is trying to settle on deciding what its best neighbors are-- hence the changes in the table. The Neighbor Table will list the 'best' 16 neighbor routers to your hub-- it will only consider those 16 for routing and they are continually evaluated, link-quality wise, by exchanging information every status interval. The other routers also maintain their own list of current neighbors. But they normally shouldn't change that often if your network is stable. If you see them change frequently, something is causing that (maybe interference; possibly marginal hardware). There are lots of things (furnishings, building materials) that can cause reception issues. It's a good idea to focus on the neighbor table's stats (no stale links, cost numbers should be low-- but not 0; LQI's > 200 are good, etc.) to weed out the stable routers from the flaky ones. And don't use more routers than you need; you need enough repeaters to be 'parents' to end devices, and enough to extend the mesh, but any more will not help you-- the link status and broadcast/routing traffic adds its own RF burden to your network.

Ti, NXP, and SiLabs have documentation that may help; the Silicon Labs stuff is more compatible terminology wise. This may be useful: EmberNeighborTableEntry Struct Reference - v6.4 - Zigbee em35x API Documentation Silicon Labs

jonasd1 · March 19, 2020, 2:42am

Here's what I am not getting. Screen Porch (Sengled) has a Tradfri lock on the other side of the wall....but it's igorning that and going upstairs to the PEANUT? Front porch lights and outside (GE Lights) are doing the same, ignoring the Tradfri and going upstairs to the 1 PEANUT....what is that about?

Tony · March 19, 2020, 3:14am

My two cents: the Neighbor Table entry for Tradfri-2 shows LQI249, inCost:3, outCost:7. That means that the hub can hear the Tradfri well enough (249 is very good, inCost:3 is average), But the Tradfri's link status report is the source of the outCost:7 figure, meaning it has assigned the worst classification (7) to the quality of the link it is seeing with the hub (from its reception point of view). SmartPlug 3's link with the hub appears to be stronger; in both directions it is showing lower cost figures. The routing strategy will favor low cost links over higher cost ones.

Do you have any flexibility in orienting the plug? Sometimes antenna directionality can make a difference.

jonasd1 · March 19, 2020, 12:45pm

when you say "orienting" do you mean just moving it? I kinda went PLUG crazy since I've been home so much, lol, so I bought some plugs someone here recommended that are Z wave AND Zigbee...I bought a 5 pack, when they get here, no more PEANUTS and I'll just those. But for now, are you suggesting I move what i have?

Tony · March 19, 2020, 2:30pm

Yes; most antennas exhibit directivity in transmission and reception (variation in the concentration of energy emitted or received in a given direction). This would apply to the hub's antenna as well.

While this document is intended to support a specific product line, its guidelines are very useful and are applicable to any Zigbee installation (note the placement do's and don'ts on page 2):

jonasd1 · March 20, 2020, 12:37am

So today, DINING ROOM Light 1 and 2 both show ON in the dash board as well as in the device screen but they are actually OFF. These are the OSRAM Lightify lights. Now there is a TRADFRI outlet in the room with those lights. Before I go and remove and install the again on the HUB, is there anything I can do to figure out WHY this is happening?

Ryan780 · March 20, 2020, 12:48am

Without going through your whole setup again and getting a look at when the last command was and when and what else was going on at the time, no, no one will just "know" why it is incorrect.

What happens if you hit reshresh?
What type of Osram lights? Under-cabinet? Bulbs?
What driver are they using?

jonasd1 · March 20, 2020, 12:52am

I wasn't suggesting anybody would know based on the info, I was moreso looking for tips on where to go so i can troubleshoot. Trying to learn to solve issues but this HE is new to me.

Refresh has no affect, they show on in DEVICE for both lights. Click OFF, nothing, Click Refresh, nothing.
Osram Lightify bulbs LIGHTIFY A19 Tunable White, 2 of them.
Driver:

jonasd1 · March 20, 2020, 2:27am

My question still stands to learn more on how to troubleshoot but my issue is resolved. I go in the Dining Room to check and sure enough my teenager TURNED OFF the lights in there. That's why they weren't responding, Argh!

erktrek · March 20, 2020, 2:37am

You might want to consider getting some smart switches to replace those particular bulbs and never worry about that kind of thing again.. maybe something like Zooz or Innovelli for the normal decora style if thats what you have. Another possibility (and apologies in advance for this) is to take a look at the Lutron Caseta stuff... it probably is the best performing / most reliable set of devices out there and works very well with HE.

see this is how it all starts... you have been warned!

aaiyar · March 20, 2020, 2:38am

If the bulb has lost connectivity with the hub (any hub) then refreshing its status will do nothing. If I am correctly recalling what @ogiewon said a while back, there are some bulbs (Sengled?) that send a last gasp "turned off" to the hub when power is cut, for instance by the switch being turned off.

Edit - I second @erktrek's suggestions on smart switches over smart bulbs.

jonasd1 · March 22, 2020, 1:01am

Ok everyone, I bought 5 of these IRIS 3210-L Zigbee/Zwave smart plugs....I paired via Zigbee first to the HE, then found some instructions that you have to hit the button 8 times to pair the Zwave radio...after a few tries I paired those as well. I want to get rid of the last PEANUT plug, the 2 Tradfri plugs, and 2 AEOTEC Z wave repeaters....because my understanding is this IRIS plugs are all i need. Right? Next question, once I take all the plugs out, I'm supposed to do a Zwave repair in HE? That's going to drop whatever is connected (Front door lock, and 2 aeotech motion sensors)....is that the best approach? Lastly - There's an IRIS driver I saw on hubitat that everyone says to change....should that be applied to the zigabee plug as well as its corresponding zwave? In other words with the 5 plugs I have 2 devices listed for each for a total of 10. 1 for zigbee and 1 for zwave. thanks for your help.

csteele · March 22, 2020, 1:28am

I'd say very few people have a symetrical Zigbee and ZWave mesh. Therefore, placement matters. If you place the outlet where it does the most good for a Zigbee mesh, it might do no good for a ZWave mesh, and vise versa.

Reviews here suggest the Zigbee repeating is better than this device's ZWave repeating. Thus, my advice is to focus on using these for your Zigbee network first. Then give ZWave a try and see if it enhances your mesh. Finally, if you have leftovers from the purchase of 5, place them where they will benefit your ZWave mesh.

I have 7 of these (6 active, 1 spare) and only 1 of them has ZWave enabled. It's also the only one using @srwhite Iris drivers.

jonasd1 · March 22, 2020, 1:39am

What a comprehensive reponse. I am doing the Zwave repair right now. (before I saw this). I have a zwave motion sensor in the master with zigbee lights in there and all up on that top level so both are needed. I have another zwave motion sensor in the basement on the same level as the HE so nothing needed there. On the 2nd level, I have a Front door zwave lock and a couple of standard zwave plugs up there as well. I got the phillips hue as recommended and I'm just waiting for the plug to arrive so I can power it up - (it's not POE so if i am hearing you correctly, i should maybe just use the aeotec zwave repeaters with the motion sensor and front door locks and make the rest of the IRIS zigbee only...does that mean I just need to REMOVE the IRIS zwave 2nd device i created for each plug?

csteele · March 22, 2020, 1:49am

No, it just means it MIGHT not prove to be valuable in that role. It's very hard to know because it might be 2nd route for a lot of devices and never get used.. til that one day when the primary gets knocked out. I doubt it can hurt, but you may one day notice one sitting on the floor nearby because someone in the house decided it's an optional thing (Me, speaking from Experience.) and you didn't notice because other routes are available.

jonasd1 · March 22, 2020, 2:08am

Gotcha...the repair is complete. While checking the logs I saw this:

But here's the thing. I'm not listening to the SONOS speakers right now and have not since yesterday. i dont even use through via HE (I just use an app on my mac to listen via sonos) so why is this saying it's unmuted and they are playing???

bcopeland · March 22, 2020, 2:31am

You can never have too many mains powered repeaters!

Tony · March 22, 2020, 7:36pm

Maybe doesn't hurt Z-Wave, as that protocol doesn't do constant link RF quality asessements, but that really isn't true for Zigbee. If you have enough repeaters to be parents to end devices and all your devices are seeing good signal strength, adding 'too many' repeaters doesn't make your mesh better-- the link status reporting traffic (which occurs regardless of message packet delivery) uses bandwidth and likely creates more MAC level retries.

While these broadcasts are restricted to a single hop and aren't likely be a practical concern for home networks, it isn't helping anything. In commercial deployments (with hundreds of potential powered repeaters in range of each other) changes are made to how the stack is provisioned (default routing & neighbor table sizes, link status update intervals, etc). These installations will specially configure mains-powered devices to act like sleepy end devices to reduce overhead.

Interesting reading:

Silicon Labs UG103.2: Zigbee Fundamentals Sec. 3.3 (https://www.silabs.com/documents/public/user-guides/ug103-02-fundamentals-zigbee.pdf) :
"The EmberZNet PRO stack supports sleepy and non-sleepy end devices. The choice of node type must also be considered carefully. For example, in a very dense network, it is not always advantageous for all line powered nodes to be routers due to possible interference issues which may occur when a child node tries to find a parent node to communicate with. It is important to try to create a balanced network where all nodes have redundant paths, but without too many routers in close proximity to create interference."

https://www.silabs.com/community/wireless/zigbee-and-thread/knowledge-base.entry.html/2014/03/24/guidelines_for_large-pgj4 :

Network Density:
"While mesh networks are generally improved by more router coverage (for a more well-connected mesh), large building automation networks (where you may have radios in every light ballast and light switch) tend to be overly dense, particularly if you make all of the line-powered devices be routers. The stack can only track a finite number of neighboring routers (16 in the case of EmberZNet), and any nodes outside of this neighbor table will require multi-hop routes (through a known neighbor) despite being within direct radio range of the sender, as only the known neighbors at the time of route discovery are considered as potential next hops in new route"

Breaking the 400 node Zigbee barrier
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/swra427c/swra427c.pdf