4 way (5-way?) Setup

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1

My most opportune place in my house where I get the highest PAF is my laundry/mudroom. setting up motion sensors with the 4-way dimmer in here has been most maddening. First with ST, now with HE it's been a journey. And I'm not blaming either ST or HE here, just my dumb luck. I would sometimes get a smart dimmer to work, and then it'd fail after a few months. Reason, see the mess below.

Working with zooz support (@agnes.zooz) on this, but also thought i'd ask the many experienced people here this question/scenario.

Here's what I have.

Box 1
Line (b, w)
Traveler (b, w, r)
Continued garage circuit (b, w)

Box 2
Traveler 1 (b, w, r)
Traveler 2 (b, w , r)

Box 3
Traveler 2 ( b, w, r)

Bonus box (hidden under smoke detector)
Traveler x (b, w, r) (these 3 connectors are likely connectors between the travelers in box 1,2,3)
Traveler y (b, w, r)
Traveler z (b, w, r)
Load ( b, w)

Over the years, I've been going crazy to figure out where load is. I thought they hid a connection through the travelers. I FINALLY found it today under the smoke detector/bonus box (building addition). Power is supplied from traveler in box 1 to smoke detector/bonus box noted above.

I bought some Zen77s on the recent sale to use around my house. Any suggestions on how to make this work in this insane setup? I'll add some pictures below.

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Bonus box

20210606_105433
20210606_1054331512×2016 761 KB

Box 1

20210606_104718
20210606_1047181512×2016 663 KB

Box 2

20210606_103336
20210606_1033361512×2016 561 KB

Box 3

20210606_103355
20210606_1033551512×2016 514 KB

3

wow that looks like fun - don't know how you worked that out.

I just have been struggling with my 4-way dimmer for my kitchen recessed lights. Originally tried the Zen24 which I got on sale this past Memorial Day weekend but could not get it to work. I got it to the point where if the smart dimmer was "on" then the other switches would turn the lights "on" and "off" but would not work if the dimmer was off.. Finally figured out the line was on the "first" switch and the load was on the last one where the dimmer was - a configuration the Zen24 does not appear to handle.

Fortunately I had also bought some 700 series dimmers as well. Was able to swap out the first switch for the Zen74 dimmer and then put the switch in place of the original dimmer. Everything started working!!!! Sure the new dimmer is in a different place but we rarely adjust anyway so it shouldn't be a big issue - still waiting on final WAF though.. but I think I'm good. :crossed_fingers:

4

I haven't gone through the wiring yet but, where do you wan the dimmer? (which box)

Is this representation of your wiring:

ForumWiring Zen77
ForumWiring Zen773125×1343 146 KB

5

For the Zen74 you'd have to put it where the Line is.. at least that's what I did per the instructions:

nr418
nr4181299×1492 221 KB

6

I would prefer the dimmer in my box 2 (if possible).

Thanks for the drawing. I would remove one of the boxes (4), since I really have (3) switches for this circuit, with the smoke detector area an extra spot to keep in mind. "I think" my load/extra box sits between boxes 2 & 3.

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Yes, my past attempts I have put the dimmer smart switch in my box 1 with my line. I have gotten it to work, but usually it fails shortly afterwards, causing nights with a beer staring at these device diagrams pondering it and talking to myself... My wife probably thought I was going off the deep end.

I even had an electrician come out to try to figure it all out, however I may have been his first attempt at smart switches (roll eyes). Great choice on my side.

1 Like
8

Yep very familiar with that muttering! Thanks for the heads up - will keep an eye out as I just added the dimmer today.

When it fails, what happens? Just doesn't work? What kind of load?

The 700 series switches have a relatively low max load. I'm pulling about ~66 watts I think.

  • Maximum Load: 100 W LED, 300 W incandescent; DON’T use
    with fans, switches receptacles, or tube lights
9

It's only 4 Leds, so probably 40w max.

What happens is similar to what you explained. I would have to keep the smart dimmer on all the time, and only use the other two dumb switches for on/off. I would just remove the apps/rules to that switch to not have the family even more ticked at me.

1 Like
10

Yep thats what happened with the Zen24 although now that I think about it I had it on the last box where the load is - did not try it on the line side, with the Zen74 it worked just like in the diagram.

Are you super sure your line and load are correct?

Find the correct wiring for a 3-way switch in 2-minutes! - YouTube

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I toned out line, so sure on that. I do need to confirm what I think is load.

1 Like
12

I think this is what you said, but I don't see it being wired this way.

Question: Is it true the currently:

Box 1, 2 and 3 act as a "normal" 4 way?

ForumWiring zen77 -2
ForumWiring zen77 -22152×2080 187 KB

13

yes, that's how i see it. Your labeling is correct. 3 switches, and a jumbled mess all connected together under the smoke detector w/ load.

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We would need to see how the light fixture is wired and how the switch in box 2 was originally wired. So far box 1 with the smoke detector looks to be between Box 2 and 3 (rather than box 3 and 4 which seems to have a direct connection with the white on common in the last box).

If you can send us the missing images in reply to our email, we should be able to figure it out for you :slight_smile:

1 Like
15

I'll try to get more pics. The switches are for (4) recessed LED lights.

16

Have you looked at Lutron Caseta? I have about 40 of them in various configurations and they. just. work. Requires their PRO hub and they ain't cheap. But 4-way dimmer is almost trivial, and your wiring is of no concern because anything beyond switch 1 is wireless anyway. And they don't require a neutral for most configurations.

17

I never liked the drawings that Zooz and the others did for 3-4 way...I didn't like the idea of mixing the lines like they show.

For my multi-switch circuits, I only used GE/Jasco and their Add-On Switch. The same switch works for either on/off or dimmer...it takes on the "personality" of the main switch.

Usual US wire colors are:

  • Black = Hot
  • White = Neutral
  • Red = Traveler

However, don't trust this - ALWAYS verify with a meter.

My most complicated setup was for my pool/lanai lighting...4 switches. I disconnected each switch to find where to put the master switch (i.e. the place that has electricity when the breaker panel is turned on and all the other switches are disconnected.)

  • For me, the other set of black/white in the box went to the next switch
  • I connected the black to "load" and the white to the neutral bundle
  • I connected the red to the "traveler" connection on the main switch

Turn power back on...the switch LED should turn on.

  • Now, turn on the switch
  • As you don't have all of the other switches connected yet, the lights won't go on
  • Go to the remaining places (where you disconnected the switches) and see which black/white pair are now hot (the red should not be hot as you have it disconnected everywhere).
    • In the box that has the hot black/white pair there should also be a black/white pair with no electricity
    • Kill power, connect the blacks to each other, connect the whites to the add-on switch and each other, connect the red traveler to the proper traveler spot on the add-on switch

Repeat this process for each remaining switch location.

  • Every time you connect an "add-on" switch, you will bring AC power to the next box (as you are connecting the blacks to blacks, and white to whites)
  • For the GE add-on switch, the red traveler is low voltage.

If you are not comfortable doing this, it may be worth paying an electrician to figure it out...probably cost you $150 or so...but you know that it will be connected properly, safely, and not violating the electrical code.

Good luck!

18

Appreciate the recommendation and I have taken a look, but I don't necessarily like the look of the switches. They would be different than every other switch in my house, since I have the basic rocker switch throughout. That would be a pretty large replacement.

19

It's not possible to use the Zen77 with your wiring. Since it requires neutral and dumb switches as 3/4 ways. You won't be able to maintain constant power to the smoke detector.
Maybe look for switch with smart Aux switches.

20

That's not correct. You will need to check again.
It's not possible for the smoke detector to maintain constant power in a 3/4 ways.
Maybe one of the traveler Romex is being used for Line/neutral from another circuit.