I have multiple switches in my house that are switch loops with no neutral installed so i bought a ZEN51 to try out. The default external switch setting (Parameter 7 for the ZEN51) is a little weird. It operates so that the switch needs to be in the on position for the relay to be turned on (which sounds reasonable at first) but if the light is on (switch up) and then you turn it off by Z-wave command and you try to turn it back on you need to flip the switch down and then up to turn it on (WAF would be way low on this) so i pulled it down and worked with Zooz support.
I used the basic Z-Wave tool to change the setting but I have to admit that I am spoiled by jtp10181's ZEN switch advanced drivers.
This thread is a little old but figured I'd tack on my experiences here. Not good first impressions with the Zen51. Have a stairwell with 2x two way (or three way, depending where you're from) switches: one at top, one at bottom. No neutral in either, so natural option is to install in the light fixture (at bottom of stairs). Single LED "100W" bulb.
Pairing and zwave control is fine (though I find it annoying it "works with Hubitat" yet the parameters have to be set manually as described above).
The issue is in use of the S1 input terminal. This is meant to toggle the Z51 output on and off by way of the original physical switch. It seems the Zen51 has zero tolerance for capacitively coupled / induced voltages on that input line. So when my switched conductor turns "off" there's either ~34, or 60-some Volts stray on that line (depending on the physical switch positions which changes the physical length of the conductors in question). It's simply induced from being in the same cable as the other live conductors. That S1 input is a high impedance input (apparently) because it does nothing to pull that ghost voltage as it's sometimes called, off the line.
I wired my DMM between the S1 input and Neutral, in the light fixture, and used the DMM's "LoZ" mode, which effectively places a 3k resistive load across the terminals to avoid these false readings. Voltage when switches are OFF is now reduced to 2-3V. Still, the Zen51 won't toggle the output. Of course if I physically disconnect the S1 input in the light fixture, I can toggle the output on/off by manually connecting/disconnecting. This is not a parameter 7 setting issue.
I have a support ticket in with Zooz, but I'm not really seeing a way around this as it stands. Pretty big bummer because the whole point was to keep existing (low cost) dumb switches. $26 Zen51 < $50-60 Casetta switch (which would require a neutral) or dimmer. Both of which have minimum load requirements. The dry contact and low cost was the appeal here for a single bulb.
Yes! I have the same exact experience with 3-way implementation. I installed in a 3-way light in my kitchen and it would only work via Hubitat. I pulled it out and put in a ticket with Zooz. They asked some questions about wiring and I told them I’d get back to them. Then I built a mock-up 3-way switch and installed the Zen51 and it worked like a champ. Went back to the actual light fixture with the same problem. Next I did exactly what you did and came to the exact conclusions. I was touching the S1 wire to the switched input to the fixture with less than 1 volt showing on my cheapo meter and it switched every time. I replied back to Zooz but said that I was going to try and figure it out. The said to let them know and I just haven’t gotten back to them. I don’t know what setting 3 is for parameter 7 but it says 3-way impulse control for select 3-way scenarios. The Zen51 works in a single switch configuration that I have but it would be a big problem solver for me if could make it work.
I've been going back and forth with Zooz support for days now... I don't see an easy solution other than a different product - in my case the walls are open so I can get a neutral in one of the switch boxes easily. At this point I need to cut my losses on a $26 device.
I did install the another Zen51 in place of a (<1A) fan switch. Kept the dumb switch as S input, local to that box, and it works fine. Seems Zooz has some issues to work out (interestingly it's listed as 'Beta' or something like that on their website... I don't like the idea of being someone's Beta tester for electrical devices behind my walls.....
Also a note for conciseness/clarity: those voltages of 30/60Volts were the unloaded switched leg, not connected to the Zen51. When connected I get like 116/120V. If I add the DMM in it's LoZ mode it realizably switches from 120V to ~2V.
@slip1n1fall (or @nibyak) just seeing if you ever figured anything out for the 3-way setup? I was just trying to install a ZEN51 in a 3-way EXACTLY the same as @slip1n1fall right down to the stairwell with a single bulb. My traveler wire is around 15ft. While I do have more than average knowledge of electricity, you seem to be more advanced than me. How are you getting the stray voltage reading? Thinking maybe with the S yellow disconnected and then check voltage from the end of the switch leg I disconnected across to the neutral with the switch leg off (on should obviously read ~120v)?
The only testing I did was I found that even if ONLY the L/N are connected to a hot feed, I am registering 120v across the S/N which I though was odd since it is a switch input not an output. Testing the Ohms set to 20M across S/L I was able to register around 7-8 which... is a lot of resistance but not a fully open circuit.
At one point I was getting an odd lower voltage reading that was slowly climbing, I think I may have been accidentally picking up the stray voltage on the switch leg but don't remember what I had going on at the time.
@jtp10181 my solution was to abandon the Zooz and install a Lutron Casetta. Sorry not sorry (to Zooz) but I spent enough time troubleshooting for their sake, and don't care to act as hardware beta tester for something that gets installed behind my walls. The workaround could be installing a minimum load on that switch line. Something like an AC LED panel indicator would likely be enough. It's unfortunate because they are a good 'hidden' repeater solution.
I am successfully using one inside a wall switch box, with a local 'dumb' switch wired to S input, for a ceiling fan. Works just fine.
I measured the 3-way switched voltage as you described: disconnected from the S input, and measured relative to the neutral in the light fixture. You'll see 120 when on, and likely somewhere between 30-80V when "off". This is completely normal, and present on every three way circuit in America. Wire up a light bulb and it will function normally. It's the zooz that can't cope.
And yes I saw the same 120V on the S input with no input actually wired, and the zooz powered.
Ok thanks for the tips. I was also thinking if I re-wire the 3-way to use the impulse control setup that it should work, I just shouldn't have to according to their documents. I sent in a ticket yesterday and asked if that might work better.
I also could just drop a new 3-wire, to replace the 2-wire, from the light to the basement switch box, getting me a neutral and do what you have done. Its only about 10ft but dang romex is expensive these days.
For anyone researching a similar issue, I just wanted to let you know that there was an issue with the initial beta release hardware that's described in the changelog for the ZEN51 and ZEN52 model. It has been addressed and as long as the devices are installed correctly per the diagrams, they work well.
Measuring Voltage on electronic controllers is usually not the best diagnostic path, especially with devices that change their electrical behavior depending on advanced settings. But just to clarify - the input (switch leg) requires 120 V, it's not isolated from power like the output part of the ZEN51 relay. This is because the ZEN51 model is not like our ZEN16 relay with dry inputs and outputs. It's designed for different functionality, with lighting applications and 120 V monitoring (of pumps or motion lights) in mind. I hope that clarifies it but feel free to reach out to our support with any additional questions.
The one I tested of course was an older 1.10 (on the back) model. I have one that is a 1.30 marked on the back so I will try that one out tonight and it sounds like that should work!
That’s good news. I have a 1.10 hardware version that wouldn’t work in the location where I needed it, but I have updated it to the 1.30 firmware (on my bench, not installed). Will the 1.30 firmware on the older hardware give me any improvement or should I just buy a new 1.3 hardware version?
It was a hardware fix, so you would need the new hardware. I am going to put one in tonight and I can confirm if it works where the old one would not. Both of mine are updated to 1.40 firmware.
That's great to hear the 3way issues have (potentially) been resolved. Can users with existing older ZEN51/52's be offered replacements? As it stands the ones I purchased cannot be used as they do not work as advertised. Feel free to send me a message directly. Thanks.
@nibyak@slip1n1fall
Success with the 1.30 hw, wired exactly the same and worked right out of the gate. Made a slight customization to the box so it could sit outside of it for easy access.
New hardware is needed if the 3-way isn't working on the wall switch side. I'd recommend checking the wiring with our support team and once we verify everything looks good, we can replace the device for you.
Yes, absolutely. If the device doesn't currently work in your set-up, just get in touch with our support to request a replacement. We will always need your order number and images of the wiring to make sure the device is installed correctly.
I just tried installing one of these in my garage. The goal is to get a switch that doesn’t have neutral to turn on/off a light fixture (through the relay) to trigger a separate smart bulb to turn on/off as well. Ideally this is all done via the physical switch like a normal light.
Since I’m installing this at the fixture where neutral is present, I’m wondering what else I have to do to be able to turn on the relay via the dumb switch? I was able to add the Zen51 to Hubitat and control via the app. I can turn off the relay from the physical switch, but nothing happens when I try to turn it on from the switch. Hubitat controlled on/off works with the switch in either position.
I reached out to Zooz support, but thought I’d mention it here to for anyone else. So close to getting this working!
I would assume you have a single two wire going to the switch? Looks like the white is wired to the yellow S which is good. On the same wire is the black tied in with the black hot bundle? This would then send 110v to S when you turn it on.
I wired up a 3way with the same setup, works great.
Blue IN should be with the black hots, and red OUT goes to the load (light)
I think I have everything wired correctly except that the white of the two wires going to the switch is no longer paired together with black like before. I was thinking that was what was missing. I was thinking maybe the relay would handle that.
Edit: Re-reading, I think I do in fact have everything wired correctly. For the single two wires originally going to the switch, the white is with S1 and the black is with the black/blue bundle. Turning the relay off from the switch turns the relay off, but turning the switch on does not turn relay back on. I will try by having a separate line going from the hot black bundle to the s1/white bundle, but I don’t think that’s necessary?
Sorry not sorry (to Zooz) but I spent enough time troubleshooting for their sake, and don't care to act as hardware beta tester for something that gets installed behind my walls. The workaround could be installing a minimum load on that switch line. Something like an AC LED panel indicator would likely be enough. It's unfortunate because they are a good 'hidden' repeater solution.
