Where did Z-Wave go wrong? from my limited viewpoint it seems like another case of VHS vs Betamax. One was technically better but licensed, the other was cheaper and open. thoughts?
also as an aside, I am not sure I see the advantage of Thread vs Zigbee. a Cloud solution waiting for a problem?
TCP/IP layer in attempt to realize the Internet of Things?? I rather continue with a LAN of Things.
Sorry, I'm not falling for another of these sensational, "Automobiles, am I right? Think I'll stick with horse and buggy!" posts.
This question seems predicated on the fact that something happened to Z-Wave, like it disappeared or is dying, but I reject that premise. 
Many manufacturers are making new Z-Wave devices, including Inovelli, Zooz, Aeotec, Yale, and...well, you can see the list of certified products, including ones recently certified, at the Z-Wave Alliance Product Catalog. There are continued innovations, too. Z-Wave LR is finally catching on for new devices, for example -- and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the impetus for Suzi on the Zigbee side.
Zigbee does tend to be a bit cheaper, probably because of less strict requirements for certification. That may make it more popular with some crowds. Thread does have some technical advantages over Zigbee, despite being fairly similar, including being a bit smarter about router vs. end devices (e.g., not every device that can be a router will be "promoted" to one).
IPv6 addressing doesn't entail Internet access (although for Matter over Wi-Fi or even Ethernet devices, I don't think there's anything stopping the manufacturer from requiring it on their side for some reason, even if Matter doesn't -- but from what I've seen so far, that's not common). It's just how Matter and Thread handle addressing nodes. I wouldn't conflate the two.
None of this to say is that I'm not mostly Zigbee and Z-Wave (and LAN) myself at the moment. I am. I also don't see that changing any time soon. For Matter, I'll probably prefer Thread as long as I can find such devices (although most of what I have now was for testing or fun than "need"). And I certainly agree that I don't, generally speaking, need Internet access for my devices; my hub is fine, and I can do what I want with that myself. But nothing about Matter itself stops you from doing the same there if that's your goal!
poor zigbee router issues can be painful for sure. Lots of money spent replacing devices which turned out to detrimental to the mesh. Lots of crappy zigbee devices out there which don't go through the same kind of certification as Z-wave. That said, I and other seem to giving away Z-wave devices as our networks typically seems to slowly shifting to being mostly zigbee. We could take a poll, but my gut for now tells more there are a lot more cases of migration from z-wave --> zigbee than from zigbee-->z-wave.
the statement above that "Z-Wave LR is finally catching on for new devices," seem to somewhat at least acknowledge the lack of traction of Z-wave compared to Zigbee. Not dead, yet... but perhaps... too little too late.
It's interesting that you're seeing a trend towards Zigbee (or perhaps non z-wave?). Personally, I'm not headed that way myself, and my few non-hubitat community HA using friends seem more lost in the wilds of wifi devices on multiple cloud platforms than any coherent system like HASS, Hubitat, or Smartthings....most of them dont even know what Zigbee & Zwave are.
I find that I'm tending more towards Zwave-LR for contact sensors and things like relays (Zen57/58), where I can, and remain a mostly Zwave Switch household, Although the new Inovelli Blue mmwave light switch is great.
If anything I'm starting to move in a Matter direction,, although the experience with matter has been less than great so far, and Thread, gack.
I think it's way too soon to declare Zwave dead, but, aside from Zooz & Inovelli, new product development does seem slower. I'm not sure it actually is, but the metric crapload of new Zigbee/Matter products seemingly appearing like magic on Amazon and AliExpress constantly sure draws the eye.
A poll might be interesting but, I'd expect, based on my time here that this community generally leans towards multiprotocol users, with protocol biases being based on use cases, that is "zigbee sensors are "faster"" and Zwave Light switches are more reliable or capable, etcetera.
But I certainly could be way off base.
S
The Z-Wave industry group changed its BOD a few years ago. Now it's mostly alarm company reps from the user side. They have the most skin in the game as they use Z-Wave for its security features. But even some of them are hedging bets - see Johnson Controls PowerG smart home accessories. The current Z-Wave 800 stuff works well, LR or mesh. But even now is not smooth as seen by the ZIP gateway retirement and Hubitat's not short path to move to ZWaveJS. I hope Z-Wave keeps going, but I'd not like to be in Zooz's seat being exclusive Z-Wave.
Also...as a semi-interesting aside, I was trying to purchase a Swidget in wall receptacle the other day, and ultimately had to e-mail swidget to ask about Zwave module availability.
The rep basically had to set up a release of a module for me, as they can't keep them in stock on their website. Given how pricy Swidget is, that indicates some pent up demand for 800 series Zwave devices...
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Are you basing your impressions about the general viability of z-wave mostly on your anecdotal experience and reports from others here (or in similar home automation enthusiast message boards online)?
Respectfully, that’s probably not a valid basis on which to make a conclusion, unless you’re also considering other sources of information that you didn’t mention?
As @scottgu3 alluded to, a poll here is unlikely to provide much additional useful information if the goal is to answer the bigger question of “is everyone abandoning z-wave these days?”
The number of responses will be small and it won’t be possible to avoid a selection bias in the first place.
Please note that I’m not criticizing your opinion, as everyone’s entitled to theirs. It just doesn’t seem like your opinion is based on reliable evidence (from what you’ve stated so far in this thread).
Are you under the impression that Thread devices are cloud dependent?
I can definitely see where there will always be a place for z-wave devices such as some device types that seem to be more reliable and for users that live in areas where the 2.4 band is extremely crowded such as apartment buildings, crowded subdivisions, or city style housing. The z-wave will eliminate the issues of interference from the neighbors wifi systems, etc. However, z-wave devices by nature are already expensive and will these use cases create enough revenue to keep the device costs from increasing exponentially? That will have to be seen.
As for my application, I live in an area where I have no 2.4 interference from any neighbors. They are far enough away to even barely register on my wifi detector. I am fortunate. So based on this zigbee for 99% of the time and applications, zigbee is rock solid for me. I have a few z-wave devices and using the Shelly contact sensor for example. It is enough slower than all my zigbee contact sensors that there is a distinct noticable difference between the devices on my C8 Pro. The Shelly is long range so it isn't a z-wave mesh issue.
Based on the cost for instances like mine I can't justify the increase for z-wave especially based on the the few z-wave devices I have. However, like I said I think there will always be z-wave and a use for it, but the cost may become astronomical for devices.
As for thread I have experimented with these and had horrible experience. That has been a while so hopefully, improvements have been made.
My sense is that long term, Matter (and indirectly Thread) will win out. - It's just the big dogs are backing it: Google, Apple, Amazon - and most of the general public (people not into HE details, HA servers, etc.) will go that easy route, which will drive demand for devices, and then you get a positive feedback loop.
Ikea read the writing on the wall - We may still be another 10 years out, and likely 5 before sales of Z protocol devices are notably impacted, but long term, the direction seems inevitable, given people want specific functionality and devices - the protocol details don't matter to them. - Multiple protocol hubs (HE, HA, etc.) will still exist, and legacy Z-Stuff will still work, but scale drives costs, and costs drive sales.
And the major players have clearly agreed on a direction and they have the scale. - JMHO.
And Matter does have a few technical strengths going for it, Multi-Admin, strong encryption, routing over existing home networks (TREL), transparent frequency hoping for Thread, support for multiple TBRs with failover, and somewhat minor enforcement of the standard around baseline device clusters (not that folks will not extend stuff with properitary features in their own clusters). Its not perfect today (see locks), but it's getting better with each version of the standard.
Generally agree. Although, it should be noted that zwave has made inroads in the home security space. Where I don’t see it being displaced by Matter (WiFi or Thread) very easily.
Z-Wave has hurt itself by being sole sourced chipset. The SiIicon Labs' monopoly sought to keep chipset prices high and as such Z-Wave is more expensive than the alternatives. Most recently a licensing deal to Trident creates the illusion of multi source but you would be hard pressed to say this is a highly competitive market for Z-Wave chipsets.
I'm a huge fan of Z-Wave, I like the lower frequency band, the technology maturity, and many of the end device vendors. I fear Zigbee and Matter will eclipse ZWave however, and it will fade into oblivion. Certainly the market hype around Matter can't be ignored.
Ghost Busters, who you gonna call? I have a mix of ZigBee and z-wave; the majority of battery sensors are ZigBee, most powered devices are z-wave. Not all in for either one. With well established meshes performance is rock solid and quick for both protocols. BUT, I've never had to fight with a ZigBee ghost.
I'm of the opinion that for now, Matter doesn't matter.
That is exactly where I am at. I'm not anti-matter, but I just have no reason to go there. Seems they really pushed matter out at warp speed, but plenty of us are still happy with older tried and true protocols, and I have no impulse to change up what's working for me. I will continue to seek out new Zigbee and Zwave devices, but eventually I will probably have to buy a matter device where I have not had to before.
Zigbee sucked for me. Mostly ZWLR now. Matter is intriguing. Driver support is key.
Download the Hubitat app
