Z-wave range issues?

šŸ“ Rule MachineĀ® All things Rule Machine
1

I recently got my hubitat so that I could migrate away from Vera (which I have had for like 8 years). But I couldn't get the hub to include any zwave devices.

After many attempts, I put a repeater next to the hub and it picked it up. It forgot about it when I moved it just on the other side of the wall from the hub.

I tried adding switches and plugs that all worked at the same distance with vera. The hubitat doesn't see anything, even with the extender.

So, I got a usb battery pack and wifi to ethernet box from tp-link. I found that as long as I am within 5 ft (line of site, so not on other side of wall either), I can include a device. After that, everything works as normal. Anything further than that, or even right on the other side of the wall does not work for inclusion.

I tried with Leviton and GE switches, a monoprice plug and an aeotec extender. (few years old).

So after using my portable hub trick to include. I was ok for a few days. But then, the extender that worked fine 5-6 ft away on the other side of a wall no longer reports in a repair after adding more devices.

While I can turn things on and off from the dashboard, apps like simple automation are sporadic, whereas with less devices they worked well. I can't get simple motion to work with my ecolink motion sensor at all.

I have 2 in wall switches and the monoprice plug module within 20-30 ft of the hub and the extender (with walls).

I love the overall experience of the software so far but this problem is concerning me and I don't know how to fix it. I can't move everything over from vera until the things I have moved work reliably.

I have maybe 100 zwave devices.

Hubitat ElevationĀ® Platform Version
2.2.4.156

Hardware Version
Rev C-7

2

I found that my mesh network improved greatly when I placed an aeotec range extender (repeater) in the same room as my hub, about 10ā€™ away from the hub. This is with a C-5 Hub.

I didnā€™t have to do this with SmartThings. I think the Hubitat radio is a little weaker than SmartThings. But adding the repeater takes care of the issue.

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3

Try the 2.2.4.158 update, as I read it solves some issues. And I saw the same thing. Devices that worked fine on ST, struggled on hubitat and some didn't work at all.

4

FWIW, just this past weekend I migrated from SmartThings and moved about 45 devices over on the Zwave side. These were a mix of GE wall outlets, wall switches, dimmers and some misc sirens, smoke/co detectors and motions. I did use a portable power supply with a wireless access point with ethernet and moved it around my home while removing from ST and pairing with a C7 hub. All went well and have not had any issues so far.

5

I have to say that the C7 should have a much greater range (i.e. more sensitive receive & send) than a C5. (See the Aeotec web site for confirmation).
I believe that the C5 radio relied much more on the strength of the Zwave mesh.In the clear, you should be able to reach a zwave plus device up to 50 feet with a c7

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6

I've always hated those "Well, it works fine for me" posts on forums, but perhaps this one will be of some value... I have three C7 hubs in three different buildings, and they are flawless. I've honestly never missed a signal (on/off, open/close) to the best of my knowledge. Here's what I've done:

  1. Before adding any device, exclude it. Twice.
  2. Add EVERY device while standing within about 5-10 feet from your hub. A foot away is even better. Yes, I know you shouldn't need to do that. Doesn't matter... Just do it. I even have a little plug-in cord rigged up to make this possible for switches.
  3. Aeotec range extenders. Put at least two in any building larger than about two rooms. I don't even like most Aeotec devices, but those range extenders are little miracle devices. Do NOT rely on just your repeating devices (e.g., switches). I don't know why, but othing worked perfectly until I put in the range extenders, and it's been perfect since.
  4. Use your system for about 3-4 days before "fiddling" with anything Z-wave, but while attempting to actually use the devices (manually turn on/off lights, open/close contacts, etc). The system needs a few days to figure out and reprogram hops, so give it that time. BTW, I added 90% of my devices in a single day, working out from the hub in terms of location, but I've no idea whether that mattered.
  5. Consider more than one HE hub (maybe start with some devices in a "zone" closer to the first hub) and get that right, then do other devices in another part of your property on a different hub. I've tried one controller (not an HE) over a large area (two buildings) and that was terrible.

Anyway, hope that helps. I've never used anything but the C7, so cannot comment on older hub versions.

7

Also if you moved your extender after pairing you should do a z-wave repair so it can find the optimized route. That said, do you have any ghosts in your z-wave table? (Go to settings, z-wave settings)

8

I also found excluding a device before trying to include it makes a big difference.

9

4.5 Shutdown the hub completely and pull the power for a few seconds a few times during this period. That seems to help this process...I have no idea why.

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10

Hey guys, thanks for the tips.

I did figure out the excluding twice thing (once from vera and 1-2x from hubitat) before adding. I've also shutdown and pulled power a few times. I am not on 158, but still having trouble with automations.

Will give it a few more days. My extender is aeotec but its a few years old. It's 5 feet away on the other side of a wall but it can't seem to get to it on a repair. I may get a second. I was hoping the monoprice plug would behave similarly.

I am worried there is something wrong with my hub's hardware but not sure how to check.

11

Two things I would try:

Move the aeotec repeater a little further away (maybe as much as 20-30 feet id you can do so without walls in between, 15 or so feet with a wall or two). Give it a day or two there to see what happens.

Ditch the Monoprice plug for a day or two (just leave it unplugged) if you can. I haven't used many z-wave devices from them, but what I have used has been terrible and I don't plan to buy more. YMMV, of course, and many others may have a different experience, but that's mine.

I am more skeptical than most that all z-wave, non-battery devices repeat z-wave commands well. My Zooz, GoControl, Leviton and maybe even GE/Jasco stuff seems to do well, and I love those Aeotec repeaters. But some other equipment seems to be a bit less, shall we say, robust. And remember, battery devices don't repeat anything, so keep that in mind. And if things just win't work, I'd contact Hubitat for a warranty replacement discussion. My C7 HE hubs have been fantastic, so don't lose faith just yet.

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12

I think you are right to be skeptical. Like you say, theoretically non-battery devices are supposed to be repeaters, but I too don't think that some do as good of a job as a dedicated repeater for a variety of reasons.

In my mind, a big reason switches and outlets don't repeat well is that often times they are buried inside walls, often with metal electrical boxes and sometimes metal wall plates which attenuates the signal. You cannot position them at a certain distance from the hub like you can with a dedicated repeater. And I do think you are right that some devices are just poor repeaters in general.

And I agree with the Monoprice stuff being flaky, that was my experience with a couple of their things, and there are lots of reports of it behaving badly on this forum too.

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13

I removed the very old ecolink motion detector and everything started working again.

My aeotec extender 7 came, I put that in place and moved the much older extender downstairs. Everything became very healthy and reliable. I added the ecolink back and no issues.

I did have to start polling my older GE switches every 10 seconds with rule machine (poller didnt work).

Hoping it continues to work well.

I honestly would prefer to pay $50 more for a reliable and long range zwave chip in the hubbie than have to find and use the "unofficial requirement" of an aeotec 7.

14

I doubt there's much Hubitat can do to improve things while remaining compliant with the FCC and z-wave folks. I've had three different z-wave platform hubs, and the HE is by far the best. So, I suspect the problem is with how powerful they are allowed to make the radio in the device. None are great, which makes things good for extender/repeater manufacturers.

15

Is anything know about the characteristic of the Z-Wave antenna?
Does it make a difference if the Hubitat is placed in the basement or the attic?
Is it better to keep it flat or can it be placed on a wall?
Compared to an Aeotec stick it does seem extremely weak.

16

I'm very sure that the more central you can make the hub, the better.
By more central, I mean if the hub can directly communicate with the majority of devices (no hops).
Give the mesh a few days to settle down.
Also, consider Zigbee devices.
One of the key competitive advantages of Hubitat is its ability to handle Zigbee (almost as well) as Zwave. If you don't happen to run into any interference issues, Zigbee can be an excellent protocol, especially for battery powered sensors.
Although I started off just using Zwave, I recently completed an installation of almost all Zigbee (and Lutron). The only things that were Zwave were two Thermostats. I was very surprised by the range of those battery powered Zigbee sensors. I have a few that are at least 50 feet from the nearest repeater - no problem.

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17

Why can smartthings and vera do it? I had my vera in my bedroom closet in the back of the house and could add bulbs in my driveway without moving the hub.

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18

When I moved from SmartThings to Hubitat about a year and a half ago, I discovered that Hubitatā€™s radio is not as strong as SmartThings.

I was told to place a repeater in the same room as Hubitat, which I did, and that solved my network issues.

19

No idea, @alienz . For me, the HE device in one of my buildings can reach devices in another building 60-70 yards away (I once accidentally added a device to it instead of the HE device that was 6 feet away). I have another property that has a SmartThings hub and it can reach all but one switch two stories away, but that one switch - same brand, model, and purchase lot as all the others - just doesn't stay connected as well as all the others. I'd say you don't have a large enough sample size to blame the hub. RF connections just have too many variables that come into play to say that the problem is definitely this, or that, one thing (including the hub). If you don't like the HE, I'd say just contact them and ask for your money back. But if removing that one device solved your problem, or adding a fairly inexpensive repeater or two solves the problem, then you end up with a really nice solution in the grand scheme of things.

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20

Zigbee just seems to repeat better.. I added some Zigbee motion sensors (NYCE sensors) at my clients house and only needed a repeater or two to cover a large area / multiple floors - I used some boxed Iris outlets I had on hand. You add the repeater and then the "out of range" device you want to include just shows up and pairs quickly.

For the Z-Wave stuff I thought the lower frequency of Z-wave and the new upgraded radio would be noticeably better but so far it's been just okay. It works but it's been a struggle to pair devices and some routes aren't adjusting (stuck on bad routes) so am not quite confident about the setup yet.