You only have 8 Z-wave devices? In how large of an area?
With those signal strengths, and route changes and few devices overall, I think you need repeaters or more repeating devices.
I can't remember what causes these numbers to reset -- Z-Wave repairs? Hub reboots? I've done both today, as I was presented with an alert in Hubitat UI about excessive database growth which suggested a reboot.
So, I assume those stats are just me playing with it over the last couple hours.
I was never able to successfully get WiFi up and running so that I could try relocating the hub somewhere else. Guess I can work on that again.
I had 11 total but a while ago I took 3 out because they seemed like they were the most finicky. I took a long break troubleshooting until I could get those replaced. The replacements didn't behave any better. So either Zooz devices are no good, or they keep sending me lemons, or there's something wrong with my hub / RF environment.
Two adjacent rooms. The hub is no more than 25' from the furthest device (with a single wall in between). Lutron and Hue hubs work great in the same location, controlling some devices that are at least twice as far.
My understanding is that every single one of these devices is a repeating device? They are all new Zooz Zen7x z-wave plus devices on brand new electrical circuits.
Reboots. Those are very high numbers.
@neonturbo's assessment is very accurate. In general, it is useful to bear in mind that the theoretical distances of z-wave and zigbee transmission do not translate well to individual homes. Walls, construction materials, and appliances can interfere with radio function.
While there are many people here who have performant networks that are entirely z-wave+, my experience is that even a properly constructed mixed mesh, like mine, can be very performant.
1 Like
I guess I'm not sure what the recommendation is, exactly? Are my current Z-Wave + devices not repeaters? Is there some dedicated repeater device I should be considering?
FWIW I got Hubitat wifi working and relocated it to the mantle. That won't fly as a permanent spot -- doesn't fit with the wife's design aesthetic 
-- but it's the most central place in my house with pretty direct unobstructed line of sight to all but 2 of these devices.
Early testing at that new location is promising. So far it's resisting my best to overload the system / simulating button-mashing kids.
The previous location was in a converted garage space; the wall diving that room from the main rooms (where most of the Z-Wave devices are) have plenty of old galvanized pipes, there's a washer/dryer and hot water heater in between, etc. I have no idea whether/why other RF technologies (Lutron ClearConnect, Zigbee, Wifi) are more tolerant of that kind of interference, but maybe so?
They are repeaters. But even repeaters are subject to the laws of physics. The antennas of those switches are usually up front, so they won't be impacted significantly by the material of the wall-box the walls themselves. But to varying extents, they are.
Are your zigbee devices in-wall or outside? And Lutron ClearConnect uses a much lower frequency (~430 MHz). This cuts through drywall, brick, and wood like a knife through butter!
In my network of 59 z-wave devices, I have 5 plug-in repeaters. They tend to do the heavy lifting for whatever reason. I think it is because their antennas exposed much more.
Also wanted to add. 90% of my lighting is all Lutron. And I have a separate mesh of about 90 zigbee devices. Getting my z-wave mesh to be performant took the most time! So hang in there!
3 Likes
So yeah, early testing in this new location has been very promising indeed. I guess z-wave is like real estate? ("location, location, location")?
Way back when we moved in here, we didn't have the best 2.4 ghz wifi coverage. Easy to diagnose when devices like computers and smartphones would drop connections or get really sluggish. I installed multiple APs years ago, and it hasn't been a problem since.
So I guess it's not unreasonable to assume z-wave radios would have similar difficulties, though my layperson's understanding was (again) that Z-Wave+ devices would mean that I effectively am blanketing my house with repeaters, and wouldn't require any dedicated repeater / second hub (analogous to my WiFi setup). Maybe that's naive / misunderstanding on my part?
1 Like
No it isn't a misunderstanding. It is an expectation that has to be moderated by the reality of how our homes are designed/constructed .....
2 Likes
Cool. Well, thanks for the tips.
Curious about your plug-in repeaters. Is that just a dumb device takes up a wall socket and does nothing more than act as a signal repeater, or do they provide some additional functionality (e.g. smart plug?)
I'll run with this newly relocated hub for a while and see if it achieves acceptable results, and then try to find some clever way to conceal it better if it works out.
Boy, I'd really love to start playing with the fun parts Hubitat and getting creative with automations and just move past this baseline of getting these network stable.
1 Like
They route and repeat. I recommend the ring v2 extenders. Work beautifully and have battery backups in them that switch state so can be used as a trigger as well. Drivers are built in to hubitat.
2 Likes
Your devices are repeaters, but you have to keep in mind that Z-wave relies on being a mesh. It is sort of a star topology, where spokes of the one device can talk to other devices who have spokes, and so on.
You apparently (judging by signal strength) don't have enough devices to form a cohesive mesh. It takes a certain number of devices to have a stable mesh that has enough routes to have reliable communication. There isn't an exact number, but typically once people hit about 12 or so devices, the mesh seems to start stabilizing.
Here is one example I found of not having enough devices, or at least not enough in the correct location to have a good mesh. You are probably getting something like the left side of the first picture across your whole network.
Like rlithgow1, I like the Ring. Inexpensive, and they work fine.
3 Likes
I use plugin sockets for this more than dedicated repeaters. They're cheap (especially used on eBay, sub $20) and provide functionality for things like holiday lighting or just behind a couch. And the larger ones like jasco or Eaton have nice big exposed antennas. As your system evolves they're easy to relocate as needed. I have one dedicated repeater in a laundry room where a smart plug didn't make sense.
3 Likes
Thanks for this explanation!
I certainly could have been in a "bottleneck" situation. The hub was located in a converted garage space, on the end of the house. Just one Z-Wave+ dimmer in the entryway of that space with somewhat clear line of sight to the main house. I could see that being a bottleneck / single point of failure between the hub and the rest of the nodes.
(Though it bears repeating: Lutron ClearConnect and Hue Zigbee evidently have no trouble blasting right through that garage wall --appliances, pipes, and all -- controlling devices even further away than these Z-Wave ones, which is why I didn't try relocating the hub sooner.)
Last question re: repeaters:
Your devices are repeaters,
So if my Z-Wave + devices are already repeaters, are the suggestions for things like the Ring device, or plug-in socket repeaters, essentially just a better version (= stronger antenna) of the same thing?
So mains based z-wave or z-wave plus are repeaters. But that said location, interference (metal outlet boxes, pipes in walls etc) play a part. In the end, you can NEVER have too many repeaters.
1 Like
In theory the dedicated repeaters are "better". You'd hope that they would be designed with antenna being the highest priority and without any need for the passthru outlet/relays they would be better than a smart plug. In practice this isn't necessarily the case (looking at you Aeotec 5) and some models have been known to be problematic. The ring model mentioned earlier in the thread is popular, people have good success with it, and it offers a notification of power loss with its internal battery. I have a Dome DMEX1 extender that works fine, but I don't think its any better or worse than a jasco/GE plugin. It just has a feature where the extender itself is on a cable and can be mounted sep from the outlet it plugs into.
When I was starting out, i quickly realized that you're kinda hamstrung when you only have exactly the number of devices you planned to "use" (meaning you're wanting to control 8 light fixtures, so you buy 8 dimmers). Instead I found that when I buffered myself with having plugs "at the ready" I was able to adapt as needed. Install a new leak sensor under a sink somewhere and for some reason its not getting very good coverage, just grab a plug from my stock and fix/experiment with the issue rather than being frustrated. I did this with zwave and zigbee both.
3 Likes
Your Hue bulbs have zigbee radios that are not enclosed (or partly enclosed in drywall). And Lutron ClearConnect uses a much lower frequency (~430 MHz) that is naturally more penetrative.
My hub is modified with an external antenna, so most of my devices are connected directly. I have 5 plug-in repeaters, and about 35 in-wall switches/outlets. So the basis of probability, if all things were equal, I would expect the in-wall repeaters to be used more often to repeat. However, what I find in reality is that the specialized repeaters are used more often (see below):
2 Likes
Thank you all for the detailed answers. Learning a lot.
When I was starting out, i quickly realized that you're kinda hamstrung when you only have exactly the number of devices you planned to "use" (meaning you're wanting to control 8 light fixtures, so you buy 8 dimmers)
So it seems Z-Wave has a rather high barrier to entry. I got by for years with a tiny Hue deployment of just a couple of bulbs and never had any reliability issues.
Last I checked, most Z-Wave dimmer brands are around $50 / ea. If the real world experience is that a mesh may not perform optimally until you've got around ~12 devices... Well, that's not in the marketing materials, and it probably would have made me rethink Z-Wave. 
I do expect to eventually have dozens more smart home devices -- probably including repeaters and plugs as suggested here. But I was hoping to spread that investment over time, to keep it in budget and learn as I go. Not a cheap hobby, I guess!
Sorta, but not exactly. New plug in outlets and dimmers from major brands are $28/$30 on Amazon today (Minoston). I've bought many used outlets on ebay for sub $20 shipped. For Zigbee I bought 4 or 5 sub $10 outlets to have as spares.
Its also not number of devices, but how they are spread out thru your home. 3 devices can work great if they aren't separated by too much distance or reflecting surfaces or concrete. Zwave marketing materials can't possibly know what environment you are going to be placing them in. No different than any other "up to XXX meters"/"up to 900mbit" type specification (wifi, etc) Zwave marketing also has no idea where you decide to place your hub, no different than where access points for WiFi might be placed. Sure, that access point CAN do over a gigabit but if you bury it into a closet or basement, it can't overcome physics of radio signals.
If I was installing wall dimmers in a room that was nearby my hub, I wouldn't worry about needing a bunch of "spare" devices. Same as WiFi. There are limits with what a single access point can do across a multiple floor house filled with giant metal appliances, mirrors, wiring and ductwork. People have learned to adapt (mesh Wifi systems are popular, wifi extenders, etc). The marketing for WiFi routers isn't any different in this regard.
Again, this is why some people choose to hire an integrator for large HA systems (Control4, etc) to do this work for them. The installer does a site survey, plan hardware accordingly based on specifications and real world experience. With DIY you're having to do that leg work but shouldn't be surprised when you don't get it right the first attempt. Lutron RA2 (non select) isn't generally sold direct to consumers for a reason. Its designed to be installed by (usually) knowledgable installers who can take all variables into account. Its a higher end system and part of that is its not supposed to be DIY. I took the RA2 Select certification just as a learning experience to broaden my knowledge for all these types of products.
3 Likes
Not to keep blabbering, but two quick examples of where knowledge and experience helps.
- Two seasons ago I bought outdoor outlets to automate our holiday lights. At the time I didn't want to spend too much and thought WiFi versions would be fine. This home has a hardwired backhaul multiple access point Eero network so 2.4GHz coverage should be just fine. I had experience with Meross products, they generally work great. So I purchased several Meross outdoor rated outlets and off we went. Unfortunately they didn' t work out so well in my environment, often failing to turn on or off, complaining of weak signals, etc. Very low WAF. Why? I'm going to guess that as 2.4Ghz doesn't penetrate exterior walls that well, plus with the high noise floor from all my neighbors WiFi, it just wasn't in the cards. The next season I bought Zwave exterior plug in outlets and they were completely solid. Now I know for next time, but an experienced installer may have said "yeah you don't really want to trust WiFi outside unless you have access points mounted outdoors". And I already had a reasonably good zwave mesh nearby where the external plugs were to be located.
- I wanted to add a zwave tilt sensor on our attached garage door. The Ecolink tilt sensor was popular, so I chose that. Being that it will be mounted on a large metal surface, I thought for sure that I would need a powered repeater/outlet nearby in the garage to extend the mesh for it. After installation I found that I didn't need any mesh changes at all. I surmise that the mesh is being extended to the sensor by a relatively nearby set of porch light dimmers, but regardless it works and its stable. A professional would have likely done what I did - install the sensor, check to see its performance and routing tables, and only then recommending adding repeaters/extenders if needed.
You learn and grow. HA is a fun hobby.
2 Likes
