Z-wave Ghost won't remove via hub, official advice?

🛎️ Get Help Devices
1

Been reading for hours over the last week with my Z-wave ghost issue. I see many advise to use a Z-wave stick, however now I see Bobby's clarification below.
I ask because the ghost appears to be effecting pairing, and the hub is only 3 foot above the device and myself.(I know, I know- pair in place not working) I haven't had time to check every single Z-Wave device, with the wife, kids, family, full time job, home renovations, but my most critical Z-wave devices seem to respond-most of the time.

As far as a healthy mesh, I actually read & followed the instructions. I built out from the center when I moved to the C7, including my repeaters first near the hub, and expanded with repeaters into other rooms(same floor) and then added repeaters on above & below stories stories. I have at least 30 repeaters spread through the home (~2500sq ft), And none of them are the cheap no-brand, "been there done that." Additionally there are 3 more repeaters in my garage, but no Z-Wave end devices in the garage...yet.

So my question is if using 3rd party devices that are not Z-Wave Plus V2 certified is not advised, what is the official solution? I DID read and search the linked Compatible Devices list, and I do not see any approved Z-wave+ V2 Stick on that list. Previously I have used the Aeotec Stick and the UZB 7.
And i have spent many hours rebooting, shutdown, cut hub power, and the ghost will not go away. refresh->remove many many times.And yes I have the latest Hub Z-Wave firmware(7.17?) I know many others have the official ghost buster status, so please help me.. if the SDK is logging that the ghost node is "no longer in the failed list", but persists in my Z-Wave details page in the hub, would pe-pairing the Z-Wave stick pickup the ghost node that supposedly not in the failed list? :confused: I don't want to make this situation worse.
Is it safe to just leave the ghost?
I appreciate any helpful comments, as I'm running out of hair to pull out.

FROM: BobbyD-For others who might follow this thread. We do NOT recommend or encourage the use of 3rd party devices that are NOT Z-Wave Plus v2 certified to remove nodes from an established Z-Wave network. Doing so may have negative consequences up to and including voiding hub's warranty or extended warranty offerd by Hub Protect.

Instead, we recommend using Compatible Devices that are known to work well with Z-Wave 700 series controller. Following the basic rules of building and maintaining a strong Z-Wave mesh would avoid the need to force remove "ghosts". In the cases where a device has died, force removal is available as long as the Z-Wave mesh is healthy.

2

Removing ghosts using the hub may work, but it may not. Some ghosts need a powerful ghostbuster.

I got the Zooz 700 series Z-wave stick, You have to install some software by Silicon Labs called Simplicity Studio (available for Windows, Mac, and Linux), but it removes even the most stubborn ghosts. You have to purchase the stick, but the software is free.

I got my stick when I was planning to reset several Aeotec range extenders so I could upgrade the firmware. I ended up with several ghosts along the way, but the stick plus the SiLabs software make quick work of them.

1 Like
3

Thank You. Yes I have done this before with my Aeotec & UZB sticks, but Bobby's advice has given me pause.
Additionally when the failed node, according to hub logs "is not listed" any longer, how can that non-existent node make it into PC controller?
I have a sense I'm going to wind up resetting my z-wave network and starting over, and God help me, no time for that.

1 Like
4

Don't do that. That is the way of dusty death... :slight_smile:

If you are not having any significant problems w/Z-Wave devices, then yes, leaving the ghost can be OK. I and others have had ghosts in the past that were not causing any problems. The only reason I removed mine was I got tired of looking at it. The general "If it aint' broke..." rule applies.

These will work fine w/the Simplicity Studio/PC Controller SW to remove ghosts.

But as to what to do, see "If it ain't broke..." reference above. :slight_smile:

If you are having problems w/Z-Wave devices and general troubleshooting of your automations doesn't help, shutting down and unplugging the hub for a minute and restarting doesn't help, and you can't remove the ghost via the Remove button on the Z-Wave Details page, then you can move onto removing the ghost using a UZB stick and the Simplicity Studio/PC Controller app.

You will want to remove power from the device that created the ghost in the first place. That device will usually closely follow the ghost device on the Z-Wave Details page, and will be the same device type as the ghost. E.g., for a switch, the ghost and device that created the ghost would both be SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY.

Edit: Thanks for the reminder, below, @bertabcd1234, that this instance had some elements that make it more of a special case.

2 Likes
5

Z-Wave PC Controller is not a certified controller (it is made by Silicon Labs, but it's really intended as a sort of example application/controller, perhaps for device development or testing--no matter what the various uses we have found for it may be). So, this is one of the things Bobby was talking about that are not officially supported. It doesn't mean it will break things, just that any use is at your own risk. :smiley: Many have used it without apparent problems. I interpret the advice from Hubitat as saying that this shouldn't be necessary, as the hub can do all of this on its own. However, some things--hopefully in the past now--have made this tricky.

I believe your case, as I mentioned in the other thread, may be one of these tricky things: database corruption, where the hub insists a failed node doesn't exist, even though it appears to as a "ghost," and won't let you remove it. (The "fix" for that, as far as I understand Bryan and Bobby's posts on the subject, is that new Z-Wave databases are created in the new, standard, more resilient format, but it won't help with an existing corrupted database. This was many updates ago.)

So I think we'd really need an answer from staff on which they'd prefer: risk a problem with a ghost that you seem to have, or risk a problem with manipulating the network via a secondary controller since the official SDK doesn't seem to work for this. Or at least that seems like your question to me--something the community can't help with, as much as many of us who've used secondary controllers in the past can say they don't seem to have caused problems.

Also, because you mentioned it: I'm not saying you should reset your Z-Wave radio, but if you do, you will likely be pleasantly surprised (I know I was!) with how much better behaved Z-Wave seems to be now. I never had to reboot the radio, remove a ghost (because I never got one in the first place--though I did have a failed pairing when the battery died on one of my sensors during inclusion), etc., all with largely the same set of devices I had before. I attribute this to radio firmware updates (and this was before the most recent one, which should help even more), including the new database, and possibly hub/platform updates, too. I've been using the C-7 since at least 2.2.3, and some things were quite rough then!

4 Likes
6

There is only one risk in this situation, and that is, attempting to solve a problem using a method that is not supported, without knowing the risks involved in doing so. Other than that, having a ghost in the mesh may negatively impact network's performance. Patience while the radio sorts out the problem is an option, but if the experience is beyond the user's acceptable level, then resetting the radio is one click away.

3 Likes
7

Followed by hours of pain :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

9 Likes
8

To be honest, 90% of the users I worked with who had patience and waited long enough for the radio to sort out the problem, were able to remove the ghost and the network recovered just fine. I am personally part of the 90% club :slight_smile:

7 Likes
9

To be honest, 90% of the users I worked with who had patience and waited long enough for the radio to sort out the problem, were able to remove the ghost and the network recovered just fine.

How long can that take? I have a ghost created from an Aeotec repeater. It's been unplugged for nearly 2 weeks but trying to remove the device from the zwave details page always fails with a message that the node is not in the failed node list. I've tried the power down and unplug method a few times and it has not helped.

1 Like
10

I believe that Bobby's advice applies to using a Z-wave stick that is "not Z-wave Plus V2 certified". The ZOOZ USB stick is based on the 700 series chip set, so that is as good as it gets.

I did add the USB stick to the Hubitat mesh, so it shows all the devices connected to Hubitat. However, Hubitat does not show the USB stick in its list of connected devices.

I might have been able to use Hubitat to remove the ghosts created when I updated the Aeotec firmware, but since I had several of them to remove, it might have been frustrating to do so without the ZOOZ stick. The stick worked 1st time, every time and my mesh remains stable.

11

The hardware is only one part of the picture; the other is the "controller" you are using, and:

I suppose that if you coupled a stick like this with HomeSeer or something (I'm assuming their software is certified, though I don't really know; I can't think of any other system this might be used with that currently is--like ZWaveJS, as many might use with Home Assistant, though that is their goal), then you might technically have a third-party device that is certified and thus technically not outside what Bobby mentioned. But I'm still not sure they'd exactly recommend that, either. :smiley:

2 Likes
12

I have had both experiences. Waiting , in some cases and the ghost was removable via the hub itself, and I've advised the same to others.
However in this case, I waited nearly a week, and the ghost would not remove. I tried many many times, and the hub could not remove it.

I'm confused as to the SDK issue:
If the SDK is at fault, how is it the Zooz Series 700 Stick works to remove the ghost, but the same? SDK on the hub can't remove the ghost? Is there anything to be learned from the Zooz/PC Controller method we can use to our advantage? In terms of improving the hub..

13

The 700 series Chip has TWO communications methods, and one is a 500 series compatibility mode. The Simplicity Studio/PC Controller ONLY uses 500 series communications. Therefore, it's not the hardware, but the software that is providing the workaround.

6 Likes
14

Beyond just not being certified (as mentioned, though not really relevant for this), PC Controller, despite being developed by SiLabs, presumably does not use the official SDK. Thus, it can do whatever it wants. :smiley: Users of the SDK, like Hubitat, can only tell the SDK to do what it offers, and if there happens to be a bug (I'm convinced early-adopter C-7 users ran into many...), then we can only hope there's a workaround or that SiLabs will fix it (as they've done for some by now).

6 Likes
16

I too waited quite a while, almost a week. In other cases that magically let me remove the ghost from the hub, in this particular case, it did not.

Assuming the risk, I went ahead and re-paired the UZB7 stick, and much to my surprise, the PC Controller picked up the ghost entry, despite the log error in the hub "failed node no longer in SDK", the entry did come over when the stick was re-paired to my C7. And finally the ghost is busted

So can this be a method for the hub to use for removing ghosts? Temporary fallback to 500 series inside the hub via a software switch, for removing ghost entries?

1 Like
17

That would need two separate z-wave stacks, and really complicate things.

2 Likes
18

Can I ask, does the ghost list as your first zwave (lowest hex) address?
Mine sits at 0B (no 0A).
Just wondering if it has something to do with being the base record with bad record pointers.
I'd like to see the lab:
Set up a new zwave database
Add a couple of zwave devices
Create a ghost record by deleting the first (lowest hex) device.
Shut the hub down.
Boot
Then see if it can be removed.

I had three ghosts and was able to delete one at 2F, other at 0C, and the last at 0B.
I tried to delete 0B first and it went pending.
I deleted 2F and 0C easily on first try.
Went back to 0B and it won't delete.

19

Ok, Here's a couple things-that SOMETIMES work. Shut down your hub, pull power for a minute or so (use the wall plug, not the micro-usb=it's fragile)
after rebooting try only "refresh"-then "remove" should show up on the ghost item. This is in the z-wave details under settings. Make sure the ghost device is powered down, or it won't remove. Occasionally for me, waiting a few days magically made the ghost removable-have no idea why.
Worse case you'll need a z-wave stick(Aeotec or Zooz) and PC-Controller to remove the ghost

2 Likes
20

Can you post your z-wave details from settings in the hub?

21

Hope you can read without the lines.
Btw, I've cut the power to all circuits in my house, running the network on backup power, shutdown the hub, restarted and tried to remove 0B. The only devices still communicating with the hub were zigbees and Konnected. Refresh to get the Remove button.
0B stays pending.
I've visited a neighbor 2 blocks away to make sure there were no communications and did the same procedures there, no luck.
And I tried the aluminum foil around the hub trick.
Also, tried a soft reset, no luck.

Z-Wave Radio Devices

0x0B (011) PER: 1, RTT Avg: 55726ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 12, Route Changes: 0 PENDING SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY None
0x0D (013) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 6ms, LWR RSSI: 22dB
Neighbors: 16, Route Changes: 1 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products Shower None 01 -> 21 -> 11 -> 0D 100kbps
0x0E (014) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 2ms, LWR RSSI: 13dB
Neighbors: 19, Route Changes: 2 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products Bath Fan None 01 -> 0E 100kbps
0x0F (015) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 3ms, LWR RSSI: 12dB
Neighbors: 18, Route Changes: 1 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products Fan None 01 -> 0F 100kbps
0x10 (016) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 18, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products Overhead None 01 -> 1A -> 10 100kbps
0x11 (017) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 14, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products Back Porch None 01 -> 0F -> 11 100kbps
0x13 (019) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 18, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products Fan Light None 01 -> 0F -> 13 40kbps
0x14 (020) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 14, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products Kitchen Light None 01 -> 28 -> 14 40kbps
0x15 (021) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 14, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair GENERIC_TYPE_SWITCH_MULTILEVEL
Leviton Bedroom Fan None 01 -> 11 -> 15 40kbps
0x16 (022) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 18, Route Changes: 0 OK SPECIFIC_TYPE_NOTIFICATION_SENSOR Smoke Detector None 01 -> 16 100kbps
0x1A (026) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 15, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products Front Porch Light None 01 -> 1A 100kbps
0x1B (027) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 18, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products Office Fan None 01 -> 1B 40kbps
0x21 (033) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI: 23dB
Neighbors: 18, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products Garage light None 01 -> 21 100kbps
0x25 (037) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI: 17dB
Neighbors: 13, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products Driveway light None 01 -> 25 100kbps
0x28 (040) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI: 23dB
Neighbors: 19, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products Guest Bath None 01 -> 28 100kbps
0x2B (043) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 11, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_MULTILEVEL
Jasco Products Bath None 01 -> 0F -> 2B 100kbps
0x2C (044) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 18, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Zooz Garage Opener None 01 -> 2C 100kbps
0x2D (045) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI: 28dB
Neighbors: 12, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_MULTILEVEL
Inovelli Foyer None 01 -> 28 -> 0D -> 2D 100kbps
0x2E (046) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 10, Route Changes: 0 OK

Repair SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_MULTILEVEL
Inovelli Dining Room None 01 -> 0F -> 2E 100kbps
0x2F (047) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 14, Route Changes: 0 OK