I had three separate Hubitat Hubs. All Three were the C5. One Hub is for my Rules, the Second Hub is for User Applications, and my third Hub is where All my devices are included.
However, my Device C5 Hub failed and I could no longer power it on. Since all my rules are on a separate C5 Hub, I just have to replace all my devices on the New C8 hub and place them into my existing rules. Not that much of an issue for me.
I started adding my Zwave devices on the C8 and it was going just fine. Then suddenly I can't seem to add any more devices. Zwave Inclusion runs the 90 seconds without adding the device. I have done all of the following.
I can easily exclude and Include my devices on my remaining C5 hubs without issue, but when I try to include the devices on My C8 the inclusion process times out.
I have tried at least 4 different additional Z wave devices thinking maybe a Device was bad.
Have used both a Wi-Fi connection and an ethernet connection
I can usually solve most of these issues because I have been a Hubitat user for years now. There was no need to replace my C5's because everything just WORKED. I was thinking about migrating to a C8 for my devices anyway because I liked some of the C8 features. I came to the forum in hopes that someone else could help me.
Attached is a screenshot of my Z-Wave details page. It looks like I have some "Ghost Devices," but I cannot remove them even after following all the steps. Adding Z-wave devices should not be this difficult. I am having no issues Including my Zigbee devices. Any help would be appreciated and Thank you in Advance!
I am about to restore the Hub back to Factory Settings and start over but I would rather not, since I already started the device inclusion process.
What helps me with stubborn devices, even new ones out of the box, is a factory reset to defaults. Check that a previous pairing attempt did not leave a ghost on the z-wave details pages.
Factory resets were done. Like I said it should not be this difficult. If I can include it on the C5, why not the C8? You would think a much newer model would be more effective and efficient. This should not be so cumbersome.
I mentioned I can’t remove the ghosts. I followed the “ghost” removal steps and I refreshed each Ghost device 3-5 times and still can’t get the remove button to come up to remove them. I did get one ghost device to show the remove button but when I clicked it, the ghost device won’t remove. Any suggestions on how else to remove these devices?
This needs to be your first priority, until removed adding new devices will be an issue. As others mentioned you may need a Z-stick. I know it's a PITA, but I have been though this myself and many others.
I will add I have a Z-wave device I can't add right now as well. I haven't put any new devices on my C8 in quite some time, just had one go bad, I am not sure if I have a bad device or something on the C8 has changed. I only had a brief amount of time to replace the device as I thought it would be a quick change. Tried to get it replaced before I went on vacation. I have it installed and working manually and I am hoping to get to look at it again tomorrow..
I decided to start over with a factory reset of the C8 which took care of the ghosts and everything else. But I believe you might be right. There is a problem with the C8 hub with certain zwave devices. I know this to be true because I just included 3 devices on the C5 but can’t on the C8.
There are way to many comments and failed trouble shooting problems for this to be an end user issue. I will just keep those devices that won’t include on the C8 hub on the C5 hub. However I will be hesitant to upgrade to any new hub unless another of my C5 bricks.
I am not a fan of buying a zwave stick especially since ALL of My Z wave devices function well on the c5 with very limited issues. This is verified by the fact that I am using 3 c5’s and have not upgraded.
Why upgrade when everything just works. I am not even convinced that if I purchased the hub protect subscription that all my devices would have migrated to the C8 without issue.
If there is someone that can convince me otherwise, I would love to hear it. I am not that stubborn to change or arrogant that I could be wrong. But when my own experience tells me otherwise it’s hard to ignore the facts. Please forgive any bad spelling or grammar. I am typing on the iPad.
Personally, having just moved all my Zwave devices from a C8 to a C8 Pro. I'm tending towards believing that there is a bug in the 800 Series Zwave stack.
When I started moving devices, I was left with Zwave ghosts on the original hub a lot. Then on the C8Pro, I had another one -- an inclusion failure left a Ghost.
It seems to be that despite an exclusion success, sometimes a ghost is left behind. Once that happens, all bets are off.
Similarly, before .192, ghosts were sometimes created as a seeming result of an inclusion event that didnt complete.
Tricky to repeat on demand, and I imagine it would be really hard to nail down..
Thanks for the comment scottu3. It's more confirmation that the problem is not with all of the end-users. There are just too many of us having similar problems with the C8. It's easy to blame the end-user when you only have one hub, however, when you have 3 or more and have different versions as well as compare apples to apples, you can diagnose the problem rather quickly. We just need the Hubitat team to actually fix the issue. Is it a hardware or software issue? I tend to believe it's a hardware issue since I am using the most recent updates on both the C5 and C8 Hub.
From my observation of things, this is correct. The Silabs firmware is buggy at best. I am not sure to what extent other hubs suffer from it, but I would suppose that to some extent many 800 series hubs do.
From what I can say from Beta, there is an effort to make improvements to both Zigbee and Z-wave. I can't say if these particular improvements are going to work, or whether they will make it into the next (or for that matter any) future firmware updates. Hubitat is not ignoring the issue, I just think it is too early in the cycle to release any information.
Hi, one thing I noted that you didn't try when trying to get the ghosts go remove is shutting down your hub. It seems both the 700 and 800 series chips struggle with joining device as a whole unless you use "smart start" .
So some advice
A) use smart start ideally where you can, I seem to just have almost no issues when joined that way.
B) shut down your hub and unplug it for a few seconds every 2-4 device. The chips are crap and only a down power of the chip clears out the crap.
I did. Many times. I not quite sure how you inferred that I hadn't from my brief description, as I didn't really describe my process...but...Magic? Nonetheless, that's a good suggestion, albeit a major time sink when moving a lot of devices!!!
Smart Start is also a good suggestion, but I have never successfully used it. I have never used it aside from one attempt, as I have never found it worth the hassle of pulling out my cell phone to scan a QR code, let alone bothering to keep track of all the DSKs. The regular include process has always worked just fine!
Having said that, the only time I did try Smartstart was on the C8 I just spent many hours moving devices off because it was Zwave flaky. So, that probably wasn't a fair test.
I've got a few devices laying around, perhaps Ill give it a shot for kicks, and curiosity!
I did find that I had to do the power cycle thing on the C8Pro until @gopher.ny released 1.92, and then inclusions on the Pro became a non-issue. Exclusions? I'm not sure. I did get one ghost on the Pro, but I kicked it out using the Zstick anyway!
Just a side note. I have 8+ hubs, and I have only had one or two Ghosts and a handful of "partially" successful joins with any hubs that were not 800 series chipsets. That is also true with regards to my older Smartthings hub(s) and the Almond + hubs. I really think this is an issue largely specific to the 800 series chipset.
But, that's just an opinion, and now that I've got the Pro running, I think I'll likely sit on the sidelines and see what the smart folks at Hubitat and this community come up with.
Thanks for the suggestions, I'll definitely mess around with SmartStart!
The Z-wave radio on the C8 and Pro are sensitive to voltage fluctuations. It has been found that many PoE adaptors do not supply stable voltages. Could also be the same for any after market power source.
Jtp, thanks for the info. I read your info on another forum before I posted my issue. I reviewed and trouble shooted in the linked document that you and I both provided. Unfortunately none of the document assistance works.
I have been using the supplied power and have plugged it into several different outlets on multiple occasions. So the Hub has started several times. I have even just used the Wi Fi just to check if my Ethernet switch was causing problems.
I am currently Including devices on the C8 and when I can’t Include them on the C8 they go on the C5. This is the best work around without pulling out what little hair I have left.
Right now I am much happier with my C5’s because I can include every zwave and zigbee device. I can’t say that about the C8. This issue needs to be fixed otherwise I am not encouraged to upgrade. Too much time is wasted just trying to pair devices. I’m glad I did not spend more money to get the C8 Pro. For that matter I should have looked for a C5 on eBay. However, I want to experiment with the C8 Wi-Fi and range capabilities. Hopefully, that will encourage me to upgrade in the future. I appreciate your insight because I too want to understand what is going on with the C8’s.
"Hubitat is not ignoring the issue"....Haven't users been fighting the "ghost" issue for years and YEARS? Now, I will admit that it is probably a SiLabs issue but nevertheless....sheeesh
No I have not been fighting the “ghost” for years and YEARS especially with the C5. …sheesh. This is my first “ghost” issue and I have been with Hubitat for YEARS! I believe I have made my point clear. Stay off the thread if you are going to be condescending and unhelpful. I have appreciated everyone’s thoughts until you commented.
Apologies I was falling asleep at the time and only saw reboot in your reply. It's a common thing people do and only reboot.
There now is a great community app for that! When you can it the app picks it up and you can set the security levels etc and then power up the device. You can backup the DSKs then to the hub through the app.
Search Smart start manager on HPM
It's also on the 700 series, it started with the C7 and needing to comply to the z-wave accreditation. However what is annoying is we are on really old firmware and SDKs of the z-wave chips so who is to say it's not been fixed.
Not sure the reason we have not updated yet, must be some legacy risks. But the latest versions give z-wave long range to Europe so I'm hoping it's soon.
But I believe you might be right. There is a problem with the C8 hub with certain zwave devices. I know this to be true because I just included 3 devices on the C5 but can’t on the C8.
Nonetheless, that's a good suggestion, albeit a major time sink when moving a lot of devices!!!
I appreciate your insight because I too want to understand what is going on with the C8’s.
