Is this the official Hubitat stance on used hubs? I don't like the e-waste implications of this. Anyone care to comment?
While I don't know that this is true, it isn't unreasonable to believe that Hubitat can reset used hubs at a level that is not accessible to end users.
And then resell used hubs that have been properly reset. I think it is extremely unlikely that used hubs sent back to Hubitat are consigned to a dump and therefore generate e-waste as speculated by one Reddit user.
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The point here is that it's a TOS violation to sell your used (registered) hub. If a user decides they're done with their hub, there's no way for them to pass it on to someone else--hence the waste. The hardware is being treated as disposable.
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I purchased a used hub a year or more ago and the shift was manual back in those days.
I had two already and I bought it for a buddy. Then basically kept it to become what we now call Server. Pre-HubConnect days
Doesnât pass the sniff test for me.
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Thatâs the website tos. Not the device:
â Hubitat grants to Customer a limited, non-transferable, non- exclusive, non-assignable, revocable right to access and use the Software for Customerâs own personal use through the expiration or termination of the Agreement.â
Ok. Seems pretty clear to me. Factory reset it and see if Hubitat cares when you give it to your friend. They won't. #fakenews. Probably voids the hardware warranty, but as to support, I doubt they care.
How do you factory reset a Hubitat?
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Not advised to do a factory reset... but in a web browser go to:
[YourHubIP]:8081
I purchased a used hub a couple of months ago and Hubitat staff (mostly Bobby) was a great help in resolving a couple of issues (webhook errors) as well as adding to my account.
I agree, doesn't pass the smell test.
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This is very inconsistent with my experience. Hubitat staff has gone out of their way to help.
have you spoke with @bobbyD ?
And if it is true, I think I understand based on sotware license terms
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No, I haven't. That's basically why I'm here asking for an official stance on this.
Sorry for the confusion. Unfortunately, our representative misspoke about the Terms of Service. We do not prohibit the sale of a used hub. For privacy reasons, we donât track ownership of hubs. When a customer contacts our support team, we provide support irrespective of who purchased the hub.
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Great so it is resolved. I think it a good idea to go correct your reddit thread, so people have accurate information.
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@bravenel -- Can we take your statement as an official amendment to the terms and conditions for use of the software, that Hubitat (the company) (1) permits resale of equipment and (2) will provide support?
Sure, it's great that you're being warm & friendly and supporting equipment that's being used by a secondary owner, but in the absence of revised T & C, this is not something we can rely on.
The T&C states:
- Ownership of Hubitat Intellectual Property.
... Customer shall not offer, loan, encumber, sell, or otherwise transfer the Hubitat Intellectual Property to any third party.
And:
- Default, Disconnection and Remedies. Customer will be in default and breach of this Agreement if Customer ... (3) fails to perform other obligations as set forth in this Agreement. In the event of a default, Hubitat may, after providing the Customer five (5) calendar days advanced notice, terminate or suspend the Customerâs use of the Hubitat Platform.
I am not a lawyer, but my reading of the T&C is that it is a violation to resell (or even give away) a Hub and Hubitat (the company) may "terminate or suspend" use of the hardware. Given that Hubitat (the company) has an undisclosed method for remotely accessing customer equipment, it is entirely conceivable and within their rights to remotely disable (brick) Hubs that are not being used by the original owner.
Not my thread.
Edit: maybe a Hubitat official can go and correct the info there.
Sorry, I saw the same exact on Reddit and believed it was you.
My apologies
Intellectual property isn't understood to encompass hardware per se. The clause is understood to be referring to the software. You couldn't take the Hubitat software and sell it to someone else.
Fun fact:
Rule Machine trademark
http://tmsearch.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=4810:m934xz.2.1
Intellectual property isn't understood to encompass hardware per se. The clause is understood to be referring to the software. You couldn't take the Hubitat software and sell it to someone else.
I agree & understand that IP doesn't typically encompass hardware.
However, the T&C from Hubitat deliberately conflate the hardware and software:
Hubitat has developed an automated home management system (âSystemâ) that uses a hardware hub that connects devices on a home automation network (the âHubâ) and provides software based services (the âSoftwareâ (as defined below) and collectively with the Hub, âHubitat Platformâ),
Note that the term "Hubitat Platform" collectively refers to the hardware & software, and the T & C then states:
- Hubitat Platform.
a. Hubitat grants to Customer a limited, non-transferable, non-exclusive, non-assignable, revocable right to access and use the Software for Customerâs own personal use through the expiration or termination of the Agreement. The Software shall be made available to Customer as a service that Customer may access and use for the Term (as defined below) of the Agreement. âSoftwareâ means the object code form of the computer programs provided with the Hub and made available by Hubitat for license to Customer including firmware
- Ownership of Hubitat Intellectual Property. Hubitat shall at all times remain the sole owner and retain all right, title and interest in and to the Hubitat Platform, any copyrights, trademarks, trade names, or other intellectual property of Hubitatâs and any other intellectual property which is a part of the Hubitat Platform or which otherwise is provided by Hubitat to Customer during the Term of this Agreement (collectively, the âHubitat Intellectual Propertyâ). Customer shall not offer, loan, encumber, sell, or otherwise transfer the Hubitat Intellectual Property to any third party.
While this is probably meant to cover the example of extracting the software -- including firmware -- from the hub and transferring, sharing, or assigning it to someone else, the process of selling the hub hardware would necessarily entail transferring the software.
I wonder if this would hold up, or of changing the word Platform to Software would be needed. Note the definition of Hubitat Intellectual Property encompasses the Hubitat Platform (the physical hardware + software), and that customers are prohibited from loaning, selling or otherwise transferring that to any third party.
My reading, as a non-lawyer, of 5. Default, Disconnection and Remedies and 10. Termination (which references the Platform, not the Software alone) is that if the original owner fails to abide by the terms (which appear to prohibit transferring the IP in the form of a sale of the hardware), that Hubitat (the company) could attempt to notify the original owner and could then brick the hub, regardless of whether the new owner agreed to the terms or not.
Do I really think that is likely to happen? Of course not, or I never would have purchased the product or agreed to the T & C.
Does the fact that Hubitat (the company) chooses not to enforce the clauses that prohibit transferring the hardware & software platform to another party at this time make me comfortable agreeing to those T & C? Of course not...since I would be expected to abide by that agreement.
(Oh, and I'm well aware that I'm falling into the common trap among IT people of trying to parse a legal agreements as if it was software -- attempting to "compile" it into an unambiguous statement that would mean the same thing to both parties, and ignoring the real-world way in which the agreement may be ignored.)
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Thank you all for your input. This topic has been addressed. If you have any further concerns, please don't hesitate to reach out to us at support@hubitat.com
