Traditional hardwired home automaton or Hubitat. Help needed here in The UK 🇬🇧

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I contacted Hubitat with the message below and they said ask the community especially the UK hubitat users so here I am asking for some help and advice...

Hope someone can help put this quandary to bed as it's hurting my brain...

...............

Greetings Hubitat from the UK.

My name is Simon and my wife Amy purchased a while ago 3 derelict listed historical buildings - Called "The Old Mill" We battled and got planning permission to link them with a contemporary extension and create one single family home (our forever home) .

We want this home to have automation and be smart and we have been researching Home automation, connected homes, IOT, etc etc for a little while and our brains are now mush. But we do like the sound of a smart home and connected devices and are having trouble deciding on which route to take ie a traditional wired home automation system (seem a bit old fashioned to me) or a smart home of IOT devices. We were worried about being dependent on the cloud but believe this isn't the case with yourselves.

We have read about your product and have watched many videos and could do with some help in "elevating our environment"

Luckily, our building project is at the stage just before any wiring (although we will be soon) so we can make a decision now and do it right.

Really would like some help and guidance if you can offer it. I know we are in England but I do have family in SFO also but thought you may be able to give us some advice.

Very briefly, when the 3 buildings are connected it will be approx 6200 sq ft and we want to control, lighting (approx 100 circuits), windows, garage doors, security maybe, AV, etc etc and many unknown devices that I am sure will crop up. Hopefully you get the gist of what we want.

Currently our smart devices consist of... nothing, but we do use android and we think we would quite like some kind of voice control element, maybe google assistant!!!

Any help you can offer is massively appreciated. I am always available and can speak with you by phone or chat if easier just let me know.

Thanking you so much in advance..hope to hear from you soon.

All the best Simon & Amy

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If your at the stage where you can add wiring I'd think about wiring 2x22ga solid core wires from a central location to each of your windows and doors that you may want open/close sensors on. This will allow you to eliminate the need to change batteries, you could also wire 4x18ga solid core wires to where you want motion detectors and sirens. Also you could wire 2x22ga wires to wherever you may want water leak sensors as well. You could then get Konnected boards to tie the wired devices with Hubitat as the brains of the system. As far as switches and locks go I'd look at Z-Wave Plus capable switches (sorry I'm not really aware of what options you have for those in the UK). Both Google and Alexa work great with Hubitat.

I'd suggest NO (Normally Open) Door/Window sensors, you have the option of visible or recessed which are more work to install and won't generally work on windows.

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Hi Simon and Amy,

How exciting to be in your position! I'm also in the UK an electrician and a lighting commissioning engineer I have been rewiring my place as I have been doing it up so hopefully I can give you a few pointers.

1st you mentioned wired control systems. Wired is always going to be faster and more robust but it comes with a few cons. 1st is cost they are usually very expensive and required specialist (my job) to come and commission them which is also expensive. 2nd is the wiring for them is normally manufacturer specific so without rewiring again you may not be able to use someone else. 3rd the software is also normally closed so again locked in.
The only "should be" exception to this is KNX this is open and many manufacturers support it but for that your going to pay a premium.

Enter stage ZigBee and z-wave cheap, wireless but new. Wireless has big advantages to wired but also adds complexity and reliability issues. If your willing to work though them and plan things well and DIY your in the right place HE is great!

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Key things your need is deep boxes 35mm minimum 47 mm if possible. Best to use fast fix as they are plastic. Ensure your electricians "loop down to the switch" (take the live and neutral down to the switch) they will also need to plan where the switch lines are taken you don't want them all in the same place in a room because the modules will take up all the space. For example if your have 2 way and or intermediate switches you would spread your switch line locations across the switches (not normally how you would wire) so that you can put smart module behind the switch.

As @Terk mentioned it's a good idea to wire alarm cable to a central location from every window and door. I would also wire data cable capable of carrying mains power to a PIR location in each room.

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Tterk, thanks for your advice re wiring. That's great advice re windows and doors I hadn't even thought about sensors on them but guess they need it to know if open or closed.

Not sure what konnected boards are but I'll look it up.

I'll be sure to check out z wave plus switches too. Thanks so much.

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Boristhecat firstly what a great name! Thanks for your advice it's especially important to chat to UK based person let alone electrician as we gotta get this right..

Deep boxes are challenge being listed and old building but will take that on board definitely.

I've a lot to learn especially about wiring differences to normal house wiring given the automaton and hubitat use. May come back to you with further questions at some point if you don't mind?

Thanks

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https://konnected.io/ You'd want the Konnected Alarm Panel wired alarm system conversion kit you can order that in 6-24 zone options. There are new versions coming out in December the Pro version has a POE connection and 12 zones on the first board, not exactly sure how add-on boards work with that one yet.

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Brilliant I'll check that at Tterk. Cheers

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yeah i'm always around :slight_smile: you want to look at aurora Aone range most of it is Zigbee 3.0 (latest) and its got a wide range of products to convert dumb to smart.

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Fantastic. I'll check out the aurora Aone range although hoping to not keep much of our dumb devices (start fresh). Good to know even dumb devices can be integrated too.

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They do lots of new dum stuff that can be turned smart with the kits and smart stuff for areas that you want full RGB or tunable White or RGB tunable Whit. Main advantage is it's all ZigBee which is the best protocol to use when you can.

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So I've had a look at the Aone stuff and they have quite a range and they look great although it seems more like a retrofit solution. (maybe better for us in that we can choose any normal products and yet include them) We have the opportunity to start from scratch but if I'm honest, I look at all these devices, hubs etc and just don't know what they do or what's needed.

I am still struggling to gauge the differences between a hardwired system like Legrand Myhome up and shopping around for all these smart products and controlling them with a hub like the HE.

Questions keep popping into my head like if we have a light switch in a room and asked Google to turn off that room light what happens to that switch? Is it the wrong way now, will it even work etc?

Same with Windows... If we wired them how does a system and us know if they are open or closed etc. Same with garage door I suppose.

I guess I'm a real novice at the moment and have a lot to learn and this is probably the scariest part for us going this route as opposed to a hardwired solution...

Does anyone know of a starting place or simple guide so I can try and get my head around it..?

The other thing that's important to us is the aesthetics of switches, sockets lighting etc. This is our dream home and we want it to look perfect and don't want a mish mash of cheap plastic faceplates...

Would love to be able to talk this through with someone...

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Need to look at this as may end up commissioning it soon as legrand brought the company I work for a few years ago. :slight_smile: but I suspect the difference will be wired compared to wireless and hubitat will probably be able to do ALOT more.

It's designed for both, they hope that when you buy there smart stuff your also buy there lights.

It's all about how you program it and what switches you use. 1st remember ZigBee and z-wave is by directional so when it gets turned on by any means it updates the hub with its state. 2nd if you like me use a contact to turn on and off the light you will need to write the rule in a way that no matter what happens it will do the correct thing. Sound complex but it really isn't you just use the light state as a condition. IF ON then turn OFF else turn ON this keeps it always doing the correct thing.

You use a controller so when you send a open or close from the switch it goes via the device (which reports it's state) which then tells the windows to open or close.

It's all the same there is still INPUTS and OUTPUTS on both systems just one is wired main devices and the other wireless.

Can't answer this one :upside_down_face:

I would highly recommend click scolmore mini grid range Google it they have loads of ranges of plates within the mini grid setup and loads of switch styles. Then with all them styles you can have the switch latching (traditional switch use) or retractive (better for controls because more events is press, hold, release, double tap and triple tap). Where you can centre off retractive is best for blind / window control and light dimming, where as standard push to make is good for input events (it can also do dimming where needed just not as user friendly).

But this is the only problem with smart sockets noone does a smart "smart" socket they do tend to be white plastic. But do you need all your sockets to be smart? Probably not so you could "hide" the smart ones where you need ie TV ones would be behind the TV.

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Much thanks for breaking down all those answers.. Could do with an electrician like yourself (i bet you're not in Hampshire.. Lol) , it's hard finding an electrician for our project who even has a basic understanding of home automaton etc let alone an expert so your help is invaluable ... We are coming upto 1st fix too so have to make a decision one way or the other pretty soon and I've no idea how much extra we should wire the property over standard electrics and cat 6?

I'm glad you know and have knowledge of the Legrand system, someone we know put a 3 cabinet system in and we took a look. It seemed OK but ties you into them and their products a little and what I see of this market and technology is that its going IOT and smart products. We like the thought of adding things that may come out in the future..

I will checkout the scolmore grid products, thanks for the tip.

I'm sure once I'm stuck in it will all become clear but knowing where to start is key. Some home auto companies we've spoken to (who all say wired - obviously) want upwards of 30k just for lighting and door entry and that's not even fitted!

Thanks again Steven

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Wiltshire so not actually far but don't work as a electrician any more, just controls commissioning and technical project support now. Wife is from Southampton :smile:

Haven't seen it yet would need to look but I'm sure it will get rolled in to us at some point.

Exactly the issue with manufacturers systems.

This is the problem, not to say they won't be any good because they will, it will be simple to use but restrictive for simplicity. It will be stable with 1 or 100 devices. Where as if you only have one or 2 wireless devices it's not going to be stable as the more powered devices you have the stronger and faster it will be. Where as the DIY system is just that, it's do it yourself (unless you pay someone for support) but with that give you more options and massively brings down the cost.

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We have good friends in Salisbury so always up that way. We are near Lymington on the edge of the New Forest.

So just had a peep at Scolmore and they are nice looking and have a few ranges .. Are they smart or just switches? haven't seen that yet.

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Devizes for me :smile:

Just switches and sockets, they do have a smart range but it's their own protocol.

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@simonpdavies

Sounds like a great project and I'm envious you're in a position to make such key decisions now. I've always been in a retrofit situation but similar listed building, large floor area and thick walls issues.

I'm not a huge fan of radio based technologies if you can avoid them. They never achieve the same reliability, particularly with these type of buildings .That's my experience but I recognise I have a radio challenged home. But for some obviously it's a very practical , even essential solution.

I would recommend you install the basis of a wired system for as much as you can. I know it sounds old fashioned but it just works everytime. Even if it's just a cabling reserve solution at least it's in place.

My approach is 'islands' of automation that all work independently of my automation system so that if it did fail everything still is usable by the less technically enthused members of the family. The HA layers the 'smarts' over the basic control system like geofencing, scheduling and logic. This essentially covers my heating, security, lighting, audio and video systems.

I'm in Yorkshire but a UK solution isn't really different to a US one except for locks, wiring regulations and security.

I wouldn't recommend Konnected by choice for a new install as it's essentially coming from retrofit/upgrading of an existing system and has some shortcomings. Specifically it defeats tamper protection on your sensor circuits and may not be acceptable for insurance or a fully monitored system. There are other alarm systems that offer Ethernet or serial connectivity that lend themselves better to a complete system , although you may have to be on good terms with a professional installer to leverage such.

@BorrisTheCat sounds like a useful person to have made contact with ...

P.S. A professional install of 'wired' high end systems is not needed and that cost is ridiculous, unless you aren't at all technically minded. A DIY approach absorbs a lot of time - far more than people expect. But we enjoy it, if you're not of that disposition then do consider these other options. Also and importantly, a professional high end installer will likely lock you into them being the maintainer of the system and your ability to reconfigure will be limited or nil (locked out) - except by using their services (and cost).

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Kevin. I have family in Yorkshire, Scunthorpe and Scarborough and my wife's family are Lincoln. Anyway thanks for your response good to know you have a listed building and the challenges that brings.

We are lucky that we don't have thick walls but 3 buildings which will become one spread over maybe 40 meters. We are incredibly lucky and are so pleased to be able to get this right from the get go.. Just knowing what to do arggghh!

I think wiring even as a backup is good but what do you wire and how is my problem. Do I run a cable from every switch light window etc to one central place? Be a lot of cables! Also how does this work with all these IOT or smart devices.. I just don't know..

Luckily for us an alarm system is not important but we do have a cctv and a simple security system/deterrent would be useful, maybe door entry with camera and remote access plus IFTTT rules such as if we are both away and it's dark and an outside motion sensor goes off then flood lights come on plus TV and activity type lights... Possibilities seem endless..

I tried uploading a picture of our place (just for info but it wouldn't let me) weird that there is a button for it..

Anyway I'm learning loads thank you

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OK, you're in , we can continue chatting then :wink:

Mines only 30m but I have four 1m thick walls over that..

The main issue here is delay - it can be slow and unpredictable - sometimes just a few secs and other times a few minutes to react. Do it locally if possible. I use CCTV too.

Have a look here...

There's a 'what' and 'how' to wire guide somewhere on that site too - I'll see if I can find the link.

A CAT5 cable to each switch and star wiring to each light bulb is good practice. But if you use mains level switching the CAT5 is not necessary, but star wiring switches is. Get a N wire included in each switch too. Needs 3 or more often 4 core +E. Having N allows great flexibility to install any RF switches there with no issues.

If you use a bus lighting control system, as I do, then CAT5 is essential