Please help me choose a ceiling fan replacement strategy

šŸ’¬ Lounge
21

I would guess the that two black wires in the ceiling are just hot and neutral. The wiring behind the walls may be a bit of a mystery, but as long as you have hot and neutral at the fan, you can accomplish what you want. If you want to put a smart switch at the box for control (maybe a scene controller like the Zooz ZEN32), you can once you find what wires are hot and neutral (assuming that they are available in the box), but you probably don't want it to actually switch the power to the fan in the box.

If your RF remote is working and you are not looking to replace the fan, a Bond bridge is probably your best option. I bought a used/refurbished one on eBay for $50 and it is working great to control my ceiling fan and light. I just set up the wall switch (A Zooz ZEN71) for "smart-bulb" mode so that it never actually switches off power, and I use that switch to control the fan with a single press up/down to turn the fan on and off, a double-click up/down to increase/decrease speed of the fan, and a held button to reverse direction (I use Webcore for the automation, but I am sure you could do the same thing in Rule Machine). I use a button on another scene controller to switch the light on and off. Works great for me.

If you want to replace it, then you have more options. One option is to buy a fan with an RF remote control and use a Bond bridge to control it. If all you want is separate on/off control of the fan and light, you can use a double-relay like a Zooz ZEN52 up at the ceiling fan and then use a scene controller to control the relays. You may also want to look at this:

Looks like it will ship in February. Haven't used it nor researched it but looks promising.

In a previous home, I used a Hampton Bay Zigbee-based ceiling module, but it doesn't look like they are available anymore.

1 Like
22

Here is a project page for the Innovelli Smart Fan Module:

This along with either Innovelli's 2-in-1 switch (Inovelli Blue Series 2-1 Smart Switch | Smart Light Switch & Dimmer Switch) or a Zooz ZEN32 or ZEN34 may be just what you are looking for.

23

That DOES look promising!
Wow.. that's a game changer.
I wonder if the dumb switches to turn off the light and fan will still function?
Does the device go before the legs to the switches, or after?

24

HolyMoly this logs like what Iā€™ve be searching for for MONTHS! At 25$ refurb I just ordered one hoping it is. If not, Iā€™ll do something with it. I canā€™t believe you are so nonchalant about finding that lol. All over every home automation forum in the verse are people posting about the discontinued Hampton Bay one.

Did you by chance see my comment directly above yours? Please help me choose a ceiling fan replacement strategy - #20 by user1021

I added some pictures.

Hopefully I didnā€™t just get my hopes up prematurely. It looks like that Zooz is what I need.

The Inovelli you linked is only for AC fans and I want DC if possible.

Thank you SO MUCH!

1 Like
25

Here is the manual for the Inovelli Fan Controller:

It has hot and neutral in and one line out for Light and another line out for Fan. So it assumes that it has full-time power. Then you control it with a scene controller or automations from your hub. Haven't looked at it in detail, but it looks like they have a wall switch/scene controller that it is supposed to match up well with.

26

Wait, did I get the Zooz and Inovelli mixed up. The Zooz should let me separate the fan from the light with only one power source and connect directly to my HE. I couldnā€™t use scene controllers at the wall to control the relays. Does this mean everything is only on/off with no speed control, direction control, or light dimming (which I donā€™t need)?

Iā€™ve been staring at this too long!

27

Yes, I did. I think you have it right. In your diagram (very artistic I must say :wink: ), I think that you are correct that the bottom left is from the panel, the red-white wire nut is what used to be a three way switch, the red/wht/blk going out the top right is the runner to the plastered over second three-way switch box, and the wiring to the ceiling goes from that other switch box. But unless you want to dig out the other switch box and really analyze the wiring, it is difficult to say for sure. In old construction, it was standard practice to take the run from the panel to the ceiling and then just run a hot-switching loop down to the wall switch, which is why many old houses don't have neutral at the switch box.

28

The Zooz ZEN52 is just a dual relay. Two separate On/Off relays powered from an always-on AC source (hot/neutral). You can then set up automations triggered from scene scene controller buttons (or use Alexa/Google Home) to turn those relays on and off. No speed control of the fans (unless there is a pull-chain to change the speed) and no dimming of the light.

I have an area in our entryway with a high 'shelf' that where I installed an outlet with a ZEN52 to separately control each socket. I can then independently control each socket even though we can only get up there with a ladder. We use it for various decorations and I may install a colored up-light at some point. It has worked flawlessly for that.

29

What makes you think you want DC? As I understand it, most, if not all, standard ceiling fans are AC (including your current fan I think).

I don't think the ZEN52 will work for DC as the relays are not dry-contact. They are simply two switched AC lines that would be used with a common neutral. If you really need DC then you need dry contact relays like the ZEN51. It is only a single relay but you can always connect two of them up in your ceiling fan housing.

30

You need the canopy module if your fan requires it. Mine does not, so I donā€™t have the canopy module installed. The wall light/fan becomes a Z-Wave button controller in my case. Its LED indicators are still controllable for status too, so I use them to indicate the status of our door locks.

Moot point unless you have one though, since they are not available. They did indicate in an interview that they might provide them again if they secure a new manufacturing partner, but I personally wouldnā€™t wait for that ink to dry.

31

So many way to acomplish this. I wouldn't focus on the size of the gang box or even if there's one there at all. So much easier when you don't already own the fan, so you can get what is easiest to install. I've found that controlling this RF fan we have, elimintated the need to worry about anything but a single power sources at the fan canopy. The only gripe I have about my particular fan is that the light is unusable when we are charging our EV, because the EVSE make the light flicker rapidly. For me that's not a big deal since we rarely use the light on the fan anyway. There are table lamps in the room for the primary lighting.

This example is two Pico's on top of a single gang box. The one on the left is mounted over the box, and the one on the right is mounted to the wall.

IMG_4435
IMG_44351920Ɨ1755 139 KB

In our old house, one of the these was a CasƩta ceiling fan controller, and the other was a regular Pico for the fan light. Before that I was using the non-Smart Lutron Maestro fan controller. If I didn't have the Inovelli LZW36, I might have done something similar to the above image in our new home, but with a Pico fan controller in one of the places. What's great about Pico is you can have multiple locations in the room (or anywhere in the house for that matter) to control the same fan/light if you want (plus multiple other funcitons or other devices on the same controller. No real need for a switch single or double gang box if you are using purely Pico controllers, you can just mount them to the wall whererve you want.

32

:joy::joy::joy: yea I put extra effort into that hoping to pull in better comment and it worked :man_shrugging:t2:

I donā€™t mind opening up that drywall and Iā€™ve done enough electrical the past few years to always keep it safe. One day that entire wall will come down when I can afford the remodel.

So, with that Zooz in the canopy Iā€™ll have two Zwave controlled power sources which should get me basic on/off functionality to a DC powered fan with independent fan and light inputs, right?

As for dimming the light, controlling the fan speed, and controlling the fan direction, I should have a few different options:

  1. Buying a dumb fan that accepts separate power inputs for fan and light functions controlled by pull chains is always an option, but provides the least functionality.

  2. Buying a dumb fan that accepts separate power inputs for fan and light functions, adding a universal RF module (or two) between the Zooz and the fan, and then combining it with with a Bond hub; however, Iā€™m not sure this could provide all three dimming, speed, and direction or just dimming and speed?

  • PS. Iā€™m still not 100% sure I understand when and how/when you can install a universal RF module and remote to a fan. I think the idea is you always can if the motor is AC, but for DC it depends if the fan controls the speed using switching resistors in series or not :man_shrugging:t2:

3a. Buying a native RF fan that REQUIRES separate power inputs for fan and light functions, and combining it with a Bond hub; however, assuming thereā€™s already an on/off button on the RF remote, this would create two on/off points, so the ONLY reason for this solution is if the native RF fan I want requires the two separate power inputs.

3b. Scrap the entire Zooz part of this and just buying a native RF fan that requires ONLY a single power input, yet allows the fan and lights to be controlled independently via the RF remote, and then combining it with a Bond hubā€¦ waitā€¦ does this even exist for around the $200 price range? This would absolutely be the easiest option!

If everything listed above is true, that gets me 90% there with the fan I bought and now am considering returning. Itā€™s ā€œsmartā€ via WiFi and only. Thereā€™s no way to connect it with Bond. The only options are Alexa, Carro mobile app, and a Bluetooth remote. Which would be okay-ish, but Iā€™m switching from Alexa to HomeKit leaving me with no possibilities for neither voice nor automation. Once Alexa is gone Iā€™ll be able to on/off the entire unit using my HE+HomeKit, but all other functions: dimming, speed, direction, and temperature will only be accessible via the Bluetooth remote or an app on my phone. Thatā€™s like fumbling the ball as youā€™re about to cross the goal line. It works, but to come that far and then stop short sucks.

PS. I would rather return and replace than try to flash with Tasmora, use HomeBridge, or the Tuya Cloud driver is I could even get them working with this thing.

33

This all started because I mistakenly purchased a few of these without realizing that when the specs say it uses ā€œRFā€ it really means BT and doesnā€™t work within the 300-45mhz range that Bond uses:
Your friend has shared a link to a Home Depot product they think you would be interested in seeing.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/CARRO-Brently-56-in-Dimmable-LED-Indoor-Outdoor-Black-Smart-Ceiling-Fan-with-Light-and-Remote-Works-with-Alexa-Google-Home-NS563B-L12-B5/318474903

It was also a decisions based on price and the fact I was using Alexa, but Iā€™m just tired of Alexa at this point and started moving to HomeKit. I guess I could run Alexa just by for the lumen, temp, speed, and direction controls, but that would be cumbersome.

At this point I just figured everything is moving to Dc in fans these days as theyā€™re quieter and more efficient. :man_shrugging:t2:

34

And Home Depotā€™s return window of 90 days from purchase started 98 days ago. Maybe theyā€™ll let me slide and return it. The other one I bought is still well within the return window if thatā€™s my ultimate best route.

I just want a fan that looks decent, isnā€™t too expensive, can be fully controlled by my HE C-7, and has an independent on/off for for light without affecting the fan that my parents can handle when visiting, I.e., a switch on a wall lol

35

Again, almost all mass-market ceiling fans are AC fans from my understanding. Especially if you are talking under $200. And the Zooz ZEN52 dual relay won't work with DC as its relays are not dry-contact, not to mention the need to for the two DC power supplies. You would need two ZEN51 dry-contact relays to switch two different DC power supplies if you really need to switch DC.

So looking at your options:

  1. This will work with a ZEN52 and give you separate control of on/off for both the fan and light from HE. No dimming. Speed control and direction from pull chains.

  2. No Zooz relay needed (or wanted) although you may want a wall switch in smart-bulb mode so to act as a scene controller but not to switch the AC. Just wire the always-on AC to the RF module and train the Bond bridge with the fan remote. Then you can use HE to separately control the light and fan. Depending on the functionality of the remote control, you may be able to change fan speed and direction as well as dim the light. You will need to make sure that the fan and the RF module are compatible if they are not sold as a set.

3a) Most native RF fans DO NOT have separate power inputs for the fan and light. The module takes an always-on AC input and the remote control is used to control both the fan and light. Then you use the Bond bridge as for option 2. You say that the native RF fan you want REQUIRES two separate power inputs? What does it do with them? If it is RF control, you don't want the AC input switching on and off. What is the model of this fan? Two AC inputs means two separate line inputs with either separate or a common neutral. A line/neutral pair is a single AC power input (don't want to be insulting but just making sure we are speaking the same langauge).

3b) My belief is that this is the most common fan, at least for mass market consumer ceiling fans. I quick search at lowes.com found over 1000 fans under $200 with remote control. Here is one that has installation instructions showing that you just hook it up to AC. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Harbor-Breeze/5013794373
The bond bridge supports both RF and IR remotes and a fairly wide range of RF frequencies so it works with most major brands of fan remotes.

If I were starting from scratch, I would either get a fan to use with the Inovelli Zigbee fan module or get an RF fan with a single AC input (again, I can't for the life of me figure out what an RF controlled integrated fan/light would do with two AC inputs) and use the Bond bridge.

1 Like
36

This looks to be a Wi-Fi fan that has an Alexa skill to work with their cloud app. Not what I would want but couldn't you do this with the WiFi fan you already bought?

37

OK. But even a DC fan will have an AC power input. Then it will have DC power supplies and control built into the fan. If it has a remote control, it doesn't matter if it as AC or DC. It has a single AC power input coming from the ceiling and when you send it remote control commands from the Bond bridge, it controls its fan and light as commanded. You don't control the DC power directly from the wall switch.

Yes, you do need to make sure that the remote control isn't Bluetooth if you want to use a Bond Bridge. You want either an 300-450mhz RF remote of an IR remote that uses 38kHz modulation (which is the most common I think).

38

This was meant as me trying to sus out every possible situation without knowing what they all are. Basically saying, if X exists then heā€™s the solution it would provide, etc. I donā€™t have a need for a fan with two AC inputs, sorry :grimacing:

Ultimately this is the reason I started this thread and am glad I did! Iā€™ve been trying to kluge my hastily purchased Carro fans like a square peg into a complexity rabbit hole that just kept getting more and more complicated. I knew there simply had to be an easier solution, or at least less complex.

Look/Style matter to a point.
Price matters more than looks.
But with my home wiring and my homeā€™s hubs and controllers matters most.
Wall switch to control lights on/off, maybe add a wall mounted scene controller in the future for lumen, temperature, speed, rotation (LTSR).
Ability the control LTSR using HomeKit at minimum but very much prefer to go through my HE first.

Other than that trying to determine what signal range an RF fan is controlled by has been harder than expected. Maybe because Iā€™ve been mistakenly filtering on DC fans. Bond wonā€™t give a decent list of what is compatible, you have to get the FCC ID for every fan and ask Bond one by one. Their forum is nowhere as good as this one either, but every the Hubitat compatibility list was less than helpful. Itā€™s just a list of 6 wall switches that have been tested with HE and incorporate buttons to control fans which doesnā€™t exactly help my situation.

I would really prefer to stay native with Zwave/Zigbee with my houseā€™s friggin concrete walls and how far the one would be from the furthest fan, but willing to try it for sure.

I canā€™t thank you enough for taking the time to explain everything while my stubborn brain fought to step back and really challenge if Iā€™m doing this the right way. This is exactly what I hoped for when I asked the question.

39

Itā€™s in the ceiling working right now using Alexa and the Carro so app on my phone, but Iā€™m determined to migrated off Alexa to HomeKit and the thread I started yesterday trying to figure that out was more than I wanted to attemptā€¦

40

I don't blame you! I don't know anything about HomeKit but I don't think you will be able to control that Carro fan remotely without either using their BT remote or going through Carro cloud services which is probably Tuyu.

If you decode to get a new fan, having a remote control and NOT having a smartphone app will mean it is more likely to work with the Bond bridge, because if it has a BT remote, you could have an app to control the fan using BT.