Neutral wire question

You have two wires coming into the cirucuit. They are the Line and the neutral. You have 2 wires going down to the switches. They are Line and Load. There is no neutral going down to the switches.

As in not on this breaker? Or not on this leg of the breaker? In other words, when you turn off the breaker, does anything else that shares a switchbox with either switch also turn off.

Mine was built in 77 and I have neutrals in all but one switchbox in the whole house.

Are any of you aware it has been a practice for many years to pull a single neutral for a pair of hot wires that are coming from separate phases. The 240v ac panel in your home provides 60 hz ac current by the power company. The neutral will carry the imbalance of the two circuits. Look at the 3 wires feeding your main panel some time. Is the neutral twice the size of the hot wires. No, it may actually be one size smaller that the hot legs. Still, you should not steal a neutral because it may be associated with a circuit that is on the same phase.

That would become a multiwire branch circuit if I understand correctly. I think you need an interlocked breaker in that case.

It's the Red Series Dimmer v2 with a dumb switch.

Inovelli instruction states that it required a neutral wire for this type of setup. I even emailed their support and they recommend for me to run a neutral wire to that switch box if I am using led lightbulbs.

Other smart switches and dimmers ALWAYS require a neutral wire. If using the Inovelli in one location is that important, you can use the non-neutral setup and then use a button controller in the other location. Wiring it with a neutral will mean pulling more wires.

I don;t know why your're fighting with me. I'm just trying to help you.

That's true today, but I would bet that more than 60% of the homes in Chicagoland have two branch circuits on a single neutral and not with interlocked circuit breakers. I think they were comfortable that the electrician knew what he was doing. Code inspectors were very strict and you were not allowed to do your own electrical wiring. That's likely changed also.

In Illinois you can't do your own electrical work? Says who? How are they going to know who did the work? So, Home Depot doesn't sell electrical supplies in Illinois then, is that what you're saying?

Why not steal both the neutral and line from the plug circuit. All you have to do is drop you light fixture and cap off the neutral from the existing circuit.
Now connect the light bulb white wire to the Romex going down to the switch box.
Connect the black wire to the bulb load.
Cap off the existing Line hot at the light box.
Use the new neutral and line from the plug circuit.

1 Like

Ryan you may never have run into an electrical inspector in the City of Chicago. The BIG cities are union strongholds. Anything requiring a building permit will need to be inspected. Adding a single smart switch will obviously slide. I can tell you Home Depot does not sell toe electrical contractors. They are a homeowner DIY store. I moved away from that are 20 years ago, but I suspect that you still cannot use romex in any construction in Chicago. It's all metalic conduit. So, no, in Chicago as a general statement - YOU CANNOT DO YOUR OWN ELECTRICAL WORK. :grinning: You build a garage - you will never pass city inspection if you don't have an electrical contractor wire it. That's life in the big city.

1 Like

I am not sure where you got the idea I am fighting with you. I have lot of respect for your feedback and I welcome it very much. I seen your posts in other thread and it show me that you are a person with lots of knowledge in this area and I am glad to see you posting in my thread and I can learn from you.

Maybe my English is not that great .. I and my wife are both Deaf so our English language is not so great.

Reason we choose Inovelli switches because of its' wide led bar which we plan to use as a notification to alert us of. certain events in the house like doorbell, alarm, garage door still open past 7pm etc stuffs like that. We brought a bunch and we are installing one in every room.

The other day I installed one in my hallway which is a 3 way dual light setup. After I install it, the light would blink on and off for about 5 second then stay off. Nothing more happens. yes i did make sure I set the switch as 3-way in preference setting.

I emailed off Inovelli support about it. They said with dumb switch, it will require a neutral and also that I am using led lightbulbs that it would be best to use neutral anyway. I ask about using aux siwtches etc, they think i would be better off to run the neutral to the switch box if I can.

That why I asked about "borrowing" neutral wire in this thread which is all about but I am not going to de it because you and other made a good point and I am listening to you and other.

Sorry if my post seem like I am fighting you but I am not ..

I thought about doing that, even I wondered why the electrician didn't do this in the first place.

The circuit is there but I notice they install all room outlets and all room lights on separate circuit so they may have their reason for doing this.

That doesn't mean you can't do it by yourself. How is the inspector going to know you had work done? Or who did the work for you?

That requires a building permit. That is not what I'm talking about. If you want to change a switch in your house, you don't have to get an electrician do you? No, of course not. That would be stupid.

I have lived in a big city...for many years. Can you please be a little more condescending?

And also if I decided to use the line from the other circuit, I will still have to go up in the attic and run another second romax wire between the two lights anyway for circuit to travel since it no longer powered at the light gang box.

Yeah, usually the outlet and light should be separate. The reason is not to overload the outlet circuit and leave yourself in the dark.
Portable heater on plug with too many old incandescent blubs... Etc.
There's code for # of bulbs per circuit as well. It's an endless loop of codes.

I did some more searching on the internet about this topic and I found this post interesting. I don't understand it completely but it seems like this post is describing that ground wire can be used as a neutral wire for smart switches to go on a stand by and there cannot be more than 5 smart switches on same circuit using ground wire as the neutral wire.

Or did I read it wrong?

Pretty sure you read that post incorrectly.

Take a look two posts down from that one at what @Navat604 wrote.

Then re-read what @ogiewon posted above in this thread :slightly_smiling_face:.

If I were you I would consider consulting with a licensed electrician. Not necessarily the cheapest method to get the job done, but unlike battery powered sensors, going the cheap route with your house’s electrical mains wiring could end up getting someone hurt or killed.

3 Likes

The only way to safely implement a Multiwire (shared-neutral) Electrical Branch Circuit, is if the two 'Hot" wires are on opposite phases of the Split 240 service. By doing so, the load on the shared Neutral wire never exceeds the current rating of either circuit, as the two circuits are out of phase and cancel one another out on the shared Neutral wire. If both "Hot" wires are from the same phase, the current on the shared neutral would be doubled and exceed the rating for the wire, which can lead to an overload scenario. Multiwire branch circuits should be protected by a double-pole common-internal trip circuit breaker, including the physical "trip tie" which bonds the two circuit breaker switches together. This guarantees both "Hot" wires are from opposite phases and that both circuits are de-energized when being serviced, to ensure there is zero current on the shared neutral for safety reasons.

So, while technically possible, unless a home's wiring was designed specifically in this way, there is no way to safely share a neutral between two circuits. One cannot 'retrofit' this design to an existing home.

Thus, the advice to the OP stands. Please, just don't do it!

Safety has to be everyone's #1 priority. How awful it would be to violate electrical code, resulting in burning one's home down, and possibly losing a loved one in the process.

8 Likes

I figured I was going to get in trouble for that one. Post deleted.

1 Like

That method came up in my searches too.

I am going to run a new Romax wire to the switch box.

I was just bored last night with all this stay at home enforced in my town and I kept searching more on this to learn if there was other methods to this even when I already decided to run the wires.

Thank everyone for sharing your knowledge here

I

5 Likes