I've never seen one live, just photos. I may have talked to one person who actually saw one. But...it' the kind of thing that really sticks in my memory. Conservative engineering, being very careful--and not thinking it through far enough.
The life risk from shock is significant; in the socket of course, but also anywhere in the circuit that you think is de-energized.
In addition, a lot more wire is energized but not carrying current; what means that if anything should happen to connect to any of that wire, it will start heating and perhaps start a fire.
There may well be more than this; I am not a qualified professional electrician (I've done a lot of work on my own houses, legally in this state, and did quite a lot of research, I at least understood what the code required, as confirmed by inspectors on the big projects, but that's a far cry from understanding more complicated cases or knowing in detail why things are done the way they are; I get that last from curiosity not from actual training!).
Ah, right, you can also get interesting voltage doubling, two hots combining out of phase. Ouch, as they say! (I'm kind of surprised they allow carrying two circuits on one 3-wire NM run, sharing the neutral, for that reason. It's fine of course so long as everything works right -- but nearly anything is fine so long as everything works right.)
I know two hots in a NM cable is fine for 220V outlets. Should not be an issue. I just purchased a coil of 10/3 to move my generator inlet.
I guess its fair to say that following the code is the best and safest way to wire. Of the things that I have seen done by "licensed" electricians, switching the neutral wire is the least dangerous (IMHO)
Besides out and out bare wires etc I think:
- Undersized wiring, flaky connections etc, over stuffing a box with more wires than code or can be installed safely.
- Plugs without GFI (bath, kitchen, outside, work areas (saws, etc)
- Wring the line to the threaded part of a bulb fixture.
- Serial running long runs using the push-in connections on the back of most receptacles.
I am not trying to discount the need for safety in wiring, but I spent many hours in the Inovelli forum helping folks wire 3-way dimmers etc. The really sad wiring some of the folks showed photos of was quite scary 
Yet they had not caused an issue (yet).
1 Like
I have experience with the new GE dimmer -- I only have one, installed on the floor in my house where the wiring is really old-school, as in knob-and-tube. 
Anyway, the dimmer works really well, much better than the older GE dimmers that also did not require neutral.
They only work with incandescent or halogen bulbs, though -- no LEDs need apply.
Could it have been a Carter System setup? Sounds like it from the description of neutrals on the traveler.
I'm not familiar with the GE dimmers. If you have a new one that advertizes no neutral req'd then you might try an Aeotec bypass device. It kinda makes the dimmer think there is an incandescent there.
By switching the neutral. Your whole circuit is now hot potential instead of neutral potential and what this does is remove one layer of safety when something goes wrong.
You are connect there are worst things out there. I went to a house where the owner changed out a 15Amp breaker to a 30Amp because his breaker keep tripping on him 
.
At the end of the day. We should at least tell people to follow code for safety. Mind you code is just the bare minimum.
1 Like
Are you referring to the new no neutral dimmer? I thought it worked with LEDs.
NVM, checked to Jasco site and it confirmed LED support.
the dimmer fully controls most fixtures without requiring a neutral wire. Adjusting brightness levels of dimmable LEDs and CFLs as well as incandescent and halogen lights from 0-100% cuts energy costs and improves bulb life.
With respect, you opinion is not based on facts or being trained on Electrical theory and so you are wrong, it is actually one of the most dangerous things to do.
Along with this.
You are correct that 220v in USA is safe for appliances that require it and are designed for that, but what about devices that are not?
If you research how the electricity runs to your house from the transformer star point and your internal connection. You will understand by following the flow. When you drop a neutral you can end up with a track back on another phase. This gives a potential difference in the UK of up to 415v for a 230v circuit or 220v for a 120v circuit in the US. What do you think will happen to a device that is designed for 230v and has up to 415 applied to it? (Subject to resistance or the return path).
Don't worry, as I found out recently, with a job I had to get involved with, due to a fire's (caused by this) even some electricians and intellectuals didn't understand why it was happening at 1st.
So yes it's extremely dangerous and I would like it If you could edit you post to stop people from accident using your diagram.
You can also search "floating neutral" that should come up with some results.
Edit: in interest of full information, you will notice that the risk of fire is increased or decreased depending on the location of the disconnect of the neutral. But even in the best case location, you would have a live connection when working on the kit, which can kill you. Even before that you will damage any electronic kit attached attached to that circuit due to the transient voltages. As that is you best case! Please use a professional to do any Electrical work you don't understand.
2 Likes
Hmm.
That's what I thought, too, but on the box it (the new model) came in, it says 'only for incandescent and halogen bulbs.' I assumed that it couldn't really be the case, that newer LEDs should work. So, I tried with a couple of recent-model LEDs. One model didn't dim to 0 when I turned the lights off, there was still a dim light coming from the bulbs.
The second model did dim to 0 when I turned off, but there was no noticeable difference between dimming to 25% and dimming to 5%, so there's a lower bound on how low they go before they turn off completely. The halogens I put in afterwards continue to dim below 25%.
You mileage may vary.
1 Like
Thanks for that real-world info. I assume that's why they have a caveat in their description:
the dimmer fully controls most fixtures
Luckily, the lights I'm going to use this switch for typically don't get dimmed. They are at 100% pretty much all the time, so I don't think this will affect our use. We do have other lights we do dim down, but those are on boxes where we have neutrals so not an issue w/those.
I agree with you 100% that my posted diagram which was a guess as to why the OP was having neutral confusion. Not a suggestion. I have pointed that out by editing my original diagram post.
With respect, you opinion is not based on facts or being trained on Electrical theory and so you are wrong, it is actually one of the most dangerous things to do.
With equal respect, you aren't familiar with my level of understanding or training. And I know very well how power enters the home and is distributed from the breaker panel.
It sounds like we've gotten off the original OP's statement that all his grounds (on a particular lighting circuit) seem to be switched. I agree switching the neutral it is not the ideal condition and it it violates NEC rules. However it does happen and understanding how to deal with it is another discussion.
Cheers.
John
Thank you for doing this, it will help me sleep 
. I just worry about information like that which could easily have been understood as what to do, your edit will ensure this doesn't happen 
.
3 Likes
Has anyone ordered one of these switches from Amazon and actually received it? Mine still shows an arrival date of 2/28-3/8 and hasn't shipped yet. The product itself is listed as "Currently Unavailable", which makes me think that my order is going to be cancelled.
Mine shows the same thing.
I got one today - - - from Jasco not Amazon - - - and installed it today. It controls one LED fixture (probably 10 -12 watts).
It took me about ten minutes. Even if there were a neutral in the box, I could not have used it. There is no provision on the switch to connect a neutral.
I think I will buy some more.
Mike M
Yup - Amazon says no-no-no now:
I am probably going to reorder it from Jasco, but I am trying to find a $10.01 item I can buy to qualify for free shipping 
1 Like
Same concern...HATE paying for shipping. (Thanks for making me like that, Amazon.)
I may just order two, though I wanted to try one first before committing.
