Jasco Z-wave wall dimmer switch that does NOT need a neutral wire

How could I hassle anyone who does exactly what I do on an almost daily basis? :wink:

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Oh it is easy.

You see something that you think is silly/whatever and you comment on it. Doesn't matter if you do it too - those are two separate things. :slight_smile:

(I never claimed I wasn't a hypocrite.)

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For a long time I frequented the Inovelli forum. I got hooked on helping folks with wiring issues and spent a lot of fun and rewarding time there. (I'm much better with hardware than software, and worked for an electrical contractor in college)

All the non-neutral switches operate by "stealing" power from the load. This is the power required to operate the dimmer controller and radio. It is supplied through the load (lamp). Means when the load is OFF it really has some very small current flowing through it. Hopefully enough to power the controller and radio but not illuminate the lamp. (FWIW I have some Inovelli dimmers and have measured the current required to power the controller and radio. Its a partial sine wave shape. I do not have a Jasco 700 to compare)

This type of dimmer design is sensitive to the LED lamp mfg's design. As mfg's try to increase the lamp efficiency it makes it harder for the dimmer to steal power.

That being said:

  1. With a compatible lamp the dimmers work as well as any other.
  2. If your lamps are not compatible you can add a power bypass across the lamp. I've not heard a chase where this did not work.

From what I've seen the Lutron LUT-MLC does not work as a power bypass with the Inovelli dimmers.
The Aeotec Bypass does work.

Although all the above experience was working with Inovelli dimmers. They apply to the Jasco as well.

If the 700 series dimmer requires lower current to operate, new dimmers with the 700 chip will have an easier time stealing power.

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Thanks very much for the background, Clears up my "kinda/sorta" understanding about how the non-neutral switches work. :slight_smile: I'm ordering one to try out in one of my older switchboxes. If it goes well I I'll probably get more to finish up "smartswitching" my house.

If you have an old incandescent 60W bulb, keep it handy as they are a good tool to test for any issues you see. If it works with the 60W but not your LEDs you likely need a bypass.

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Just ordered one! My house was built in 85 and has neutrals in every box... except one. This will be a nice upgrade.

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does it work in 3 way.. i have weird wiring in some outlets in the other housje where they seem to pass the neutral through a traveler wire.. not sure exactly how but not one of the 2 switches had a permanent neutral so i left them be.. I did have an electrician come and rewire one 4 way. that was really borked and only worked in certain combinations of the switches.

Your setup might be like this:
Note: this is not a suggested method of wiring. IT IS WRONG. I only posted it in response to a poster who had an issue with some switch wiring and suggested it might be because their wiring WAS WRONG as show in the below diagram.

possibly not easy to veryify.. anyway would this work in that configuation.. probably not without rewiring

I know the Inovelli has a 4-way wiring diagram, but willing to bet that it isnโ€™t the same one that Jasco would use....

I hope not, its rely dangerous to switch the neutral! :anguished:
needs to be flipped.

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Inovelli doesn't require a neutral. It can be powered in place of a regular light switch by added an aeon labs load resistor, and as far as I can tell, can be used in virtually every possible configuration.
I use mostly the Red Series dimmers, but I have also used Black series dimmers and switches. Aside from scenes, they all work the same.

It really is; it means that when the light is off, and people will mostly casually assume the socket is dead, that there's actually full line voltage in the socket. So if you get careless changing a bulb or something (and are grounded to something) you can get a full-blown line voltage shock. This rarely kills you (NOT NEVER!!!), but it's no fun. Even a very small chance of dying is a bad thing.

In case anybody was unclear on why switching the neutral is so bad!

(In the very early days of electrifying houses in the USA, they fused both the hot and the neutral. They gave up fusing the neutral for similar reasons, if the neutral fuse blew but the hot didn't, the circuit was outโ€”but there was still full line voltage present at the outlets, light sockets, whatever was on that circuit.)

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Is this your diagram? The normal is to run the white wire (neutral) direct to all bulbs, and switches, and they are often tied together for any single breaker.

The black wire (line) is the one that gets switched. the reason is that line is the hot wire, and neutral is the floating ground reference (not to be confused, or used as with earth ground).

If the switch is wired as shown, then the light socket is very dangerous to touch.

Yes this is correct, not a well known fact about the old fuse breaking of the neutral :+1:

The other reason is the flouting aspect of the neutral in this case. It could mean that you could get 415V UK or 220V US on the phase.

I'm just guessing based on a limited description. However while it isn't the ideal case I wouldn't categorize it a dangerous. Mostly it means the lamp will still have power to it when you change the bulb.
And if you rely on the dimmer air gap to remove power for some wiring change (not a good idea in general) you will "most likely" be unpleasantly surprised.

I say most likely because I have wired hot circuits and lived to write this. I was young then and would likely not repeat it today :smile:

That must have been very early. I've worked on a number of houses with knob and tube wiring and saw no indication of neutral fuses.

I wonder if at that time they tied the neutral to ground?

It's extremely dangerous as both a risk of electrocution and is a fire risk while the device has a phase and no datum point. Please don't underestimate the seriousness of me telling you not to do this. I'm an fully qualified electrician, not some Jo just saying not to do it. DO NOT switch the the neutral, full stop.

It was and was swiftly removed due to the above.

Part of a Electrical test is to prove that the circuit is not switching the neutral.

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As a youngster, I lived in one of those "very early days" houses. (Gas fixtures still worked!)

The fuses were open wires of various gauges stretched between poles. Though the panel was lined with asbestos, it's a wonder the house didn't burn down. It still stands - - - completely rewired, I am sure.

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I don't mean to underestimate any risk, however I don't see your assertation that there is an additional fire risk due to switching the neutral.

If I have line and neutral going into a ceiling box. And that ceiling box has a light connected to it.
The correct wiring would be to connect the light to neutral and run the line to the switch and back to the light.

In this case the light is connected to the line and the neutral is run down to the switch and back.

The voltages in the box are the same either way. I will concede switching neutral wire leaves line connected to the light when the switch is off and therefore a safety issue when changing the bulb. But that's all I see. If I am wrong I would very much like to understand my error.

I will concede that NEC does not allow switching of ground conductors (which the neutral is)

John