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If your really serious about HA, Zigbee and Zwave are somewhat of a hassle, given the "inherent single master controller design" and need to clone things (MACs, etc.), during the failover. Matter, with it's native multi-controller support makes HA alot more feasible, out of the box (with just a heartbeat between the two hubs, which could be implemented with hub-mesh and global variables).

Not saying it helps much in this user's Zwave focused environment, but longer term, I would think Matter is going to make HA/multihub instances much more feasible. YMMV.

Yeah, in due time. Matter is a great concept but it has not fully delivered yet.

this sounds interesting. means we can use usb zwave/zigbee radio on hubitat ? can you maybe post the link to the howto here ?

No, I was referring to Home Assistant (HA). Sorry for the confusion.

I think you're referring to this:

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I'd never considered this before since I'm happy to pay for the subscriptions--good value for money to my mind.

That said, why on earth don't local backups include *radio data--clearly, if it can be pushed to the cloud, it can be stored locally... so I guess it's business/bait. :man_shrugging:

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"Bait" seems a little unkind...ouch. :slightly_smiling_face:

Like any company they have to work out a combination of goods and services that allow them make a profit and stay in business. Otherwise they go away...

$30 a year is chump change for anyone creating an automated home, can't see how anyone in this game would feel burdened by that. And if you don't want or need cloud backup, don't have to sign up. That's a good thing. Plus free migration from older to newer hubs. Flexibility of this platform is it's leading edge. :grin:

The original intention was focused on the hub protect service. The intention of Hub Protect is like an insurance policy to protect you against a catastrophic hub failure. They get you back up and running as quickly and easily as possible. So in order to do that, they had the cloud Z-Wave radio backup included with the service. There is really very few other instances where you might need this backup.

The migration now also uses that cloud service, and the Zigbee backup was added when it became possible to do a restore with the 3.0 chip. That facilitates in easier migration or a Hub Protect claim / restore.

So really outside of Hub Protect or a migration, there is very little use for the radio backups.

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Hmmm, wasn't my intent :frowning: . But if it is for 'business' reasons, then it is bait; that is, it's intended to attract customers towards a premium/billable & superior experience.

I value the subscription services and agree they're great value for money.

You are paying for the hub protect service (insurance / extended warranty / piece of mind), the cloud backup comes as part of that service to facilitate restoring to a replacement hub.

Makes it really easy for the users since they dont have to worry about storing or securing the backups, just pay the yearly fee and you are covered.

Thats my take on it anyway.

I have never had a hub fail, and I have never needed a cloud backup for that reason (except for migration).

How do you know that?

All fair. :+1:

None of it explains why it's not contained or can't be contained within a local backup, though. In the spirit of "local/no cloud dependency", being able to recover from a catastrophic failure without the cloud seems reasonable.

// didn't intend to derail the thread; apologies.

I think it has been explained but maybe not enough times.

The original Z-Wave and Zigbee chips purchased for Hubitat had their internal DB locked... couldn't be read. This was a choice made by the chip manufacturer and was in a time when this was a popular technique. These chips were not the only chips on the market with that "feature".

I don't remember when exactly it changed, but probably when the C-5 came out, the ZWave chip could be read, but the Zigbee chip could not. I could be wrong but I think at the time, one could buy readable versions of the chips, but they were not the bulk of the manufacturing process and as a result, more expensive, even if only a few cents more. You can see that today with the caveats around Home Assistant "If you have the right radio stick..." you can back them up.

Hubitat wanted to create a product to extend the Warranty and since that included a replacement hub, a subscription model was created. $30/year, as mentioned. But to do a decent replacement swap, the Z-radios had to be readable. Thus the cloud backup was invented. It's the chicken-and-the-egg thing and since the egg came first, (replacement subscription) the chicken is tied to it.

I understand how cool it would be to have it all for free, but that's not what's on offer.

So.. yes, now, with the C-7, C-8 and C-8 Pro, the radio data can be contained within a backup, and in fact is, if you accept that a cloud backup is a backup. The "local/no cloud" words have never been associated with "ever, under any circumstances" kind of logic. Clearly Alexa, GH, Weather and Platform Updates are all Internet functionality. Although not a Hubitat product, HPM needs Internet access to work, because that's where the repositories exist.

Not so much to me. Off-site storage is a mandatory item for professional disaster recovery. People pay millions to store critical records in Iron Mountain, for example, and banks make profit on Safe Deposit Box rental.

Again, I recognize how cool it would be to have the backup be free, but it's not... unless you're migrating from an older Hub to a newer one.


Perhaps this'll be the n'th time that finally reaches us all--I appreciate your diligence in ensuring we all understand.

Good stuff; really... thanks!

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