I'm at a loss here. I'm working on installing water leak sensors throughout the house. We have an old hydronic underfloor heating in our basement and I have no idea how to monitor leaks. When a leak happens, more than likely water will present itself within the slab. The only thing I know is that the pressure gauge should be between 10-25 PSI. If there's a leak, it would be much lower. If it's 0 that's probably a dead giveaway of an issue. For those of you that have hydronic underfloor heating, how do you monitor leaks? Is there such a thing as a smart pressure gauge?
I don't have hydronic heating, however we do have some heating hot water pipes under concrete, which recently leaked.
We have an oil fired boiler for heating.
The only way I've figured out to know if there is a leak is to turn off the pressure regulator / fill valve and monitor the pressure. So a pressure sensor anywhere in the system and maybe temperature should do the trick.
I would think one of the FIBARO SMART IMPLANT FGBS-222 devices might be able to read the sensor output. However I've never used one so I'm just guessing is all will be compatible.
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I think the pressure idea is somewhat viable for catastrophic leakage but is that the typical expectation of failure for concrete encased piping? I don't know. Sure, if it is freeze prone then I'd say yes...otherwise I'd say your highest likely point of failure is seepage at fitings...and hopefully most of those are NOT encased in concrete.
IF you go the pressure monitoring route you are going to have to consider municipal water supply pressure fluctuations which might be just as slight as a small low flow leak would be.
But let's say if you noticed a change in pressure trend with a 10 psi delta that might be an indicator....so
The industrial kit for "smart" pressure sensing off pipe fluids is costly and often embedded behind proprietary SCADA communication protocols.
That's probably why there is an increasing number of YouTubes on the subject using affordable pressure transducers and arduino boards. Maybe this is something you could work up...cause like you I'm not seeing any turnkey (affordable) wireless water pressure measuring gauges.
Edit: adding "affordable"
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I commented in the other thread moments ago.
I wonder if something from the automobile field might be used? Like, a low oil pressure sensor.
I haven't had much luck with the Smart Implant. Plus, the sensors usually wind up in a difficult to troubleshoot space.
I disagree, at least for a residential hot water boiler system. Such a system has a bladder accumulation tank and a pressure regulated feeder valve. The regulator is usually set for 15 psi.
IF you shut off the feed valve inlet, the pressure will go up and down maybe 4 or 5 psi but no more than that. So if the pressure reads say 8 psi then there is a good possibility of a leak somewhere. You would then need to search for the leak and open the feed valve input to keep the boiler pressure from going too low.
I will admit you will need a decent pressure sensor and some way to get it into Hubitat.
OR perhaps you could use a switch. I've been watching this one for some time now, but I have a number of automotive grade pressure sensors so I've not gone ahead with a switch method.
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Ah, of course it would.
What do the kids say....? "My Bad".
Thanks for the correction.
EDIT ADD: That oil pressure switch is a simple & clean solution that has me thinking of other water system use cases. Wondering about the susceptibility to corrosion if the active end of the sensor was designed for oil immersion.
This is a very good point. @HarleysWorld .....It is important to understand that the pressure regulated feeder valve will try to maintain the pressure in the system if there is a leak or not. That is its function. If there is a leak the pressure regulator will just make up water to the system to maintain its pressure setpoint.
So, as @JohnRob points out, to check for a leak you need to close off/isolate the pressure regulator valve (hopefully there is a shutoff valve on the makeup line adjacent to the pressure regulator to do this). Then you can monitor the pressure in the system, Don't forget to open up the valve on the makeup line after you monitor for the leak.
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Does that mean the rule would be more like a scheduled health check (i.e. isolate pressure regulator valve, then check the pressure in the system: open valve back up if good or send alerts if not) rather than like a water leak sensor?
If your system is equipped with an automatic water replenish valve like my friends house has, you could monitor the water line that brings the water to the system. If water is being added, you might have a problem going on and the system needs attention. It is normal that some water is added to the system every now and then, but if it's adding water on a regular basis, there has to be a problem.
Yes, exactly
I agree, but this would require some sort of water meter on the makeup line.
Just need a flow switch (switch turns on when water is flowing). Then connected to any sensor like the following: zooz zen16, Fibaro implant, Sinope Multi Controller, Shelly Uni, etc.
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I was thinking more like the valve would be off all the time, the pressure would be monitored. If the pressure goes below a certain threshold the owner would be notified.
We had an new boiler installed about 2 years ago. I shut off the fill valve (our boiler has a 1/4 turn valve just before the fill valve, I think this is a common installation feature). I monitored the pressure (manually with an industrial gauge) for over a year. Pressure held with no makeup water. Note, while the boiler was new, the remaining plumbing is 55 years old.
If it's part of a closed loop hydronic heating system dissolved oxygen should be low.
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Hey! I know this is an old post I made awhile ago but I am now revisiting this topic and Iām thinking temperature may be a good way to monitor for leaks as well. Are there smart temp sensors that I can fit around the pipes?
I'm not aware of an off the shelf Smart device with such a capability. You would have to modify one.
There are plenty of Arduino based devices that would work here.
Not sure how monitoring temperature will find a leak. My leak was very slow and the only way to sense it was to close off the fill valve and monitor system pressure.
For a boiler system, the water would be at a certain temp. I believe if there is a major leak (not like trickles at fittings type leak), there would be a decrease in temp but not quite sure. It was just one of the suggestions our contractor gave.
Assuming you have a boiler then:
The boiler goes on and off to keep the water temperature with some temperature range. The temperature range usually varies about 10 to 20 Ā°F. So in normal operation with no leak you can expect a variation if temperatures at the boiler.
If the expansion tank is working properly the change in pressure due to the change in temperature will be minimal.
So if the system automatic fill valve is shut off, the Pressure in the system will stay approximately constant. Once there is a leak, as the volume in the system gets lower (because of the leak and the auto fill valve is off) the pressure will start to drop. Normal pressure is between 10 and 15 PSI so if the pressure drops to 5 then something is going on, likely a leak.
I have a Shelly Uni Plus in my crawl space that controls my hot water recirculating pump with one of its relays. Then it also supports up to 5 DS18B20 temperature probes. I have 2 hooked up and taped to my hot water lines in 2 separate locations.
