Convinced Me That I Need a Hub

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Greetings,

Sorry for the long message, but I've done a fair amt of research and still need some advice.

I've been a long-time SmartThings user, but living in a relatively small (1400 sq. ft) condo in a city I don't have a huge need for automation; I have a dimmer switch, an outlet (aquarium lights), a motion sensor, a water leak sensor, and my Harmony hub connected.

Recently we purchased a 4K+ sq. ft. vacation home and its sheer size combined with the fact that we are only there occasionally seems to make it ripe for home automation.

To give you a sense of where I think we're heading w/automation:

Not Installed

  • ~30 switches, 20 of which are dimmers, maybe 6-8 are 3-way switches
  • 2-4 Smart Outlets
  • at least 1 outdoor spotlight/camera
  • 1 or 2 indoor cameras
  • 2 or 3 indoor motion/temp sensors
  • 1 or 2 water sensors
  • smoke/CO detector(s) (maybe)
  • anything else?

Installed

  • 1 Smart Lock (Yale/August installed)
  • 2 Smart Thermostats (2x Honeywell Wifi installed)

Note: We seem to have electrical with neutral wires available in most places but I have found at least one switch that does NOT.

Having not purchased any HA equipment in a while, I was surprised at how much less pervasive smart hubs seem to be (can't even find SmartThings hubs), coinciding with a seemingly huge number of wi-fi direct devices that are out there, and how inexpensive they seem to be relative to Z-wave or Zigbee devices.

I realize that wifi devices require cloud connectivity and have their own apps, but beyond that, as long as they're compatible Google Home/Assistant I BELIEVE that like I can create routines that combine different brands.

I also recognize that they connect directly to the router, but a) I have a mesh router so the house has good connectivity all around and b) we're in a somewhat remote location, so don't have to worry about interference from neighbors devices. I've read people warning of 'too many devices' clogging up the router, but in my experience there's very little 'traffic' generated by these devices so I take that advice with a grain of salt.

My biggest expense will probably be the light switches/dimmers. I bought a couple of Treatlife Wifi dimmers for <$20 each and was impressed at how easily they were to install and pair. But tbh, what I like most about them is that they have a) set of always-on LED indicators that always communicate what level of 'dim' the switch is currently set for, and b) a separate on/off button from dim control. Thus you know what they're set at before you turn them on and can change dim setting both before and after turning on.

Unfortunately for some reason, most of the hub-based dimmer switches I've found seem to be simple rocker switches which I'm not a fan of (exceptions I found were HomeSeer and Lutron, both very expensive at a scale of 20-30 switches). Thanks to this forum I also discovered Inovelli (more expensive than wi-fi, less expensive than Lutron) but there seem to be availability issues with these.

IF I decide to buy a hub, I'm convinced that Hubitat is the way to go. But I'm not yet convinced that I SHOULD or NEED to buy a hub at this point. Perhaps I'm over-estimating the level of control and customization I'll have using Google with these devices? Perhaps I'm missing something else.

Given all that I've shared, what's your opinion? No hub? Hub with less expensive wifi switches and zwave/zigbee elsewhere? Hub/zwave/zigbee all around?

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond.

PS - If I've overlooked any worthy Z-wave/Zigbee switches/dimmers, please lmk.

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Also look at Inovelli. They make nice looking products at reasonable prices. Unfortunately, a number of their dimmers / switches are currently out of stock on their web site. https://inovelli.com/products/switches/

As for convincing you to get a hub, what that gets you is much more sophistication in controlling your devices and less vendor lock in. I combine z-wave and zigbee from multiple vendors and using hubitat's built-in apps (no added charges!), can still use them with Google Home, and using Homebridge (free) can use with Apple Homekit.

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Some things I do that I think would require a hub.

If my door contact sensors are open for 2 minutes I adjust the thermostat depending on the time of year. And once they are all closed again for 2 minutes then I set it back.

I have a socket in the kitchen that monitors power. I have an ice tea maker connected to that and when I brew some tea a rule kicks in when it sees the power go up. Then once it goes back down to less than 5 watts I start a timer (so that any dripping can finish) and then I have a pushover alert go out to tell me the tea is ready. This alert repeats every 10 minutes until I tell Alexa "I have my tea" then it quits bugging me.

I have lights in the house that behave differently (which ones come on and how long before they go out) when I have guests by just setting a virtual switch that says I have guests.

I can tell Alexa "It's nap time" and it will suspend some motion rules so lights in the room don't come on until I'm up again and let Alexa know that.

I have humidity sensors in the bathrooms that will turn on and off the exhaust fan based on humidity going up from a shower and then waiting until it falls back below a specific level.

If the bathroom exhaust fans are turned on manually I have a rule that will automatically turn them off after 25 minutes.

Some of those maybe able to be done without a hub but they are easy to pull off with one.

And once you get started you'll suddenly say "Hey I could automate that!"

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Sorry, I don't have time to read your tome. Just spend the 150 (or whatever it is now) bucks and get on with it :joy:

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There's no point to automate everything if you are not going to be there much.
I would concentrate more on water, fire and security.
Do you need a hub? That will depend on the brands you pick.

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I believe it comes down to your Smart Home philosophy and the sophistication you envision building into your system. This may sound heretical in this community, but there isn't anything fundamentally wrong or bad about a non-hub implementation. Both hub and non-hub solutions have benefits and disadvantages. Which benefits outweigh the associated disadvantages in your estimation?

I think many here prefer this kool-aid flavor to the others because a) they are tinkerers at heart [I know I am. :slight_smile:] , b) started with Smartthings since there weren't as many WiFi devices available, c) voice control was in it's infancy, d) left Smartthings when tighter control was placed on the platform, e)had visions of automation grandeur that WiFi systems have difficulty, at best, of meeting, f) want/need as much control to be local, so their house doesn't stop functioning when their internet goes down at the hands of a fiber-seeking backhoe.

You are the only one who can truly answer your question. Here are some things to pander in your search:

  • Are you a tinkerer?

  • Do you want to spend time modifying, configuring, and redesigning your system because of some new whiz-bang device all of us nerds are drooling over?

  • Do you have reliable internet service?

  • Are you OK with your automatons not working for two+ hours when your internet service offline?

  • What do you want home automation to do for you now and in the future?

The last item is probably the most important. We all have some vision of what our smart home could/should be. The answer to that question will guide you through the myriad of other questions that follow. This is a fantastic community of people that love home automation (a higher level concept that just a smart home) and are very free with their opinions. Most aren't too sarcastic. I would urge you to read through a wide variety of threads to get a taste of what can be done with home automation to make your family's life better.

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BTW @AndyCapp at some point you should give it your best shot and choose. It will change later regardless of your choice.

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This is probably the most important question to ask. It really comes down to simply what you want out of it. Then take some time to figure out if the hubless solution will fully do that for you.

I would also suggest you consider what the limits are of the devices that will be controlling your environment.

Google hoome for instance doesn't really have the ability to do allot of smart automations. Sure it works fine to create a rule that does something when you give it a command, but it won't be able to create a action based on another device or sensor. Alexa devices with Zigbee does better then Google Home, but only marginally.

Hubitat is great at controlling things locally, but then will have issues with some clound/wifi based devices that haven't officially be integrated.

The concern with Wifi based devices causing a issue for a router is simply about overhead maintaining the wifi environment. You wouldn't feel pain at 25 or even 50 devices, but it can happen as the number of devices gets high. What you have to remember with wifi is that each device weather active or not maintains a connection to the router. That does take some bit of communication in the spectrum airwaves. Each new technology improves it, and also using Mesh technologies expands in further. The impact is likely not with your individual smart devices, but high speed devices like game streaming or video playback across the network. But again you need allot of devices for this to add up to something big enough to be a issue. Also being your place is 4000sqft it is likely devices will spread will across your mesh network. Also some folks will say just because it is wifi means you are dependent on a external server somewhere. That isn't always true, and i have a few bulbs that prove it. Wemo smart plugs are also local as well even though they are on wifi.

The simple answer is nothing is perfect. so figure out your use cases you want to do and get the devices needed to do it. I have been working on my HA environment for 3 years now, have Smartthings, Hubitat, Google Home, and Alexa. I just automate thing when i find a need for it and get to the point the desire to automate is more then dealing the with the status quo.

The reason you can't find Smartthings right now is because they have basically killed there hardware business and have handed it over to AEOTEC. The replacement hubs haven't been released in some places yet. That is largely why I have hubitat now.

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@AndyCapp I forgot to mention I am using the Eaton RF9640 dimmers, RF9601 switches, and associated accessory devices (RF9642 and RF9617 respectively). They are all Z-wave+, have always illuminated indicators for ON/OFF and dimming level, and separate ON/OFF and dimming buttons. I also like the ability to directly associate the dimmer/switch and related accessory devices in 3 and 4-way situations. This gives my system greater resiliency in the event my hub is offline from some reason. The direct association gives the accessory device permission to talk directly to the primary device without needing the hub. The accessory dimmer can also show the dimming level.

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@mavrrick58 you are correct. Nothing is perfect for all needs, nor all situations.

Your statements on WiFi capacity are definitely on point. The less expensive access points/routes can be more problematic, but generally if it is good enough for you to stream 2 or 3 movies simultaneously, it is more than capable of the small additional traffic of 50 smart devices. I use an Orbi mesh system, and it is fast and just works. The access point built into the gateway at my previous home did have challenges from time to time. Some of those were truly due to physical configuration of the house and where I could locate the gateway.

Yes, some WiFi devices can be operated locally. I have some Wemo dimmers in my system, and they are connected to my HE hub. They can be a bit cranky at times, but the SAF was much higher than most devices I tried. I would give them 3.5 stars out of 5. Your mileage may vary, batteries not included, some assembly required.

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Lol It's $130 ATM. :smiley:

Why?

As @Navat604 said security is probably the main issue unless you want to have lights turning on/off to give it the lived in look. Investing in a whole bunch of switches seems overkill for this purpose when you can simply change over a few bulbs and an IR controller/plug to turn the tv on.

IMO I'd simply install an alarm and/or cameras. (Fire/smoke would be integrated as part of the alarm). I don't see water as being a problem as I would assume ppl would turn off the mains supply while not there.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

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Then you shouldn't. :man_shrugging:

As other have mentioned, it isn't anyone's job to convince you or not, so I'm not going to engage in that part of the discussion. If you can't think of use cases of why you need a hub, then you probably don't.

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also consider, if you're vacation home is far away and you need to access the hub, if something goes wonky, and believe me it will, you'll want a means to power down the hub, like a wifi plug you can remotely turn off, after you shutdown the hub.
To avoid issues, find someone with a reliable setup and purchase only the same exact devices, and even then each unique environment affects the stability of devices.
Don't misunderstand, Hubitat is great, but wireless/zigbee/z-wave are all "magic" we can't see, nor can we see how it is affected by other signals, building materials, without expensive tools.

With my devices, my house, my location ST has been much more reliable, but HE is much better for tinkerers and much more powerful

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That's why it's a good choice to have a local hub. My smart home always works.

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About a year ago (pre-pandemic) we had three properties spread out over 500+ miles, including one on an island in Maine (where it gets very cold and things freeze solid without heat) with a single neighbor and two buildings there that we wanted to monitor. So, I have a bit of experience with your situation, but perhaps in a more "extreme" situation. I have also used various home automation systems, platforms and devices for over 15 years now. Here 's my quick experience, fwiw:

As others have noted, focus first on security and "core" systems (fire, burglar, HVAC, water leaks). No home automation system is a substitute for a professionally-monitored, UL-listed fire/burglar system.

If heat is essential (as it was/is for us) we also wired in backup, manual thermostats in case the connected stats "fried" (they could run without an internet connection, but we wanted to make sure that we weren't dependent on the device itself going kaput when no one was within miles and the road was impassable). FWIW, we now also have a secondary heat source that kicks in if the primary fails, on a separate fuel type, but that's admittedly more than most would do.

Automatic generators - rated for extended (many days) runtime (a big point of failure suburbanites don't think about) and with significant fuel reserves can keep your connected devices running. No electricity tends to be a weak point people forget.

Reliable internet connection, with a failsafe backup (such as cellular) if you want to maintain your connection.

OK, after all that is addressed, do you need a hub? Umm, not for convenience devices (most light switches). And some hubs, such as SmartThings have the same internet-dependent weaknesses as wifi devices. So, if you just want convenience, a hub is NOT necessary, in my view. But if things MUST stay up and running, I'd focus on the things I noted above first, THEN decide on your automation. For us, reliability was a big deal, so removing the internet as a point of failure was important (so no dependency on it). And, I find a ot-internet-dependent hub gives me more control and capability for more complex rules/programming compared to Alexa/Google/etc.. I have three HE hubs, and am happy with them.

So... if you just want fun and convenience for a few devices, wifi devices are likely fine. But the more you move into "this stuff NEEDS to work", the more you need to think about removing and backing up points of failure, and that points away from wifi devices and cloud-based anything. To each their own, based on need and desire.

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What a great idea!

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Just keep in mind that an unexpected power cycle can cause corruption of the hub database, which can lead to other subsequent issues.

It might be necessary to do it in some circumstances, nonetheless. When I have inadvertently cut power to the hub, I usually soft reset and restore the database from the most recent backup before the hub’s power was lost. Just to avoid potential issues.

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Be very cautious about automating anything that can cause a fire or explosion if something goes wrong. The proprietary control you mention most likely has safety features built-in to mitigate that risk.

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-- UNCERTAIN. My priority has been lights/switches because a) we have a game/family room that has at least 7 different light switches, each of which would probably be configured differently depending on the situation (e.g., playing pool, entertaining, watching a movie, etc.) so being able to activate a preset with a 'Hey Google' would be great, and b) would like to have some program control over exterior lighting, in particular when we're not there.

Home security would be a priority as well. The sense I'm getting here though, is NOT to rely on HA for this (vs. e.g., a SimpliSafe or other all-in-one solution with monitoring). Only pause I have here is that previous owner actually had an alarm system installed but ended up disabling it because he claims (lol) when he wasn't there, rodents would set off motion sensors, alarm company would call, and he would be 200 miles away and couldn't get to the property in any case.

In any case thanks!