Basic stuff first

New user here, so bear with me. New to ZWave as well as Hubitat - I come from previous X10 and curren Insteon systems.

Ok, so I want to get the very very basic functions working first. So far I have:

  1. A Wallmote Quad from Aeotect (Z-Wave)
  2. A Qubino DIN Dimmer

I want to be able to click button 1 once to turn it on/off and pressing button 1 to dim up. Alternatively use button 1 to turn on with a click, dim up by pressing it, and use button 3 to click off/dim down by pressing.

I can easily set up on/off with the Simple Lighting app, and dimming with Rule machine. Though, due to lagging, I need to guess how long to press the button, release it, and only afterwards can I see the level I have set. That's not gonna work. :frowning:

I was hoping to create a group with the button and the dimmer (as I have done with another system), which from what I understand would make them talk directly to each other and not go through the Hubitat, thus causing the lag (I assume). However, Hubitat only allows me to use switches when I create a group, and the Wallmote is set up as a button and not a switch.

What to do? This is indeed the very very most basic functionality of a lighting system - it must be possible to set up with Hubitat, no? I would be open to other battery-operated buttons/switches; I have onl bought this to try out before buying for the rest of the rooms.

Thanks in advance - Peter Hjalmarsson

Welcome to the forum...

Z-Wave is very much a multipurpose do lots of things and is a very poor lighting control system compared to Insteon or Lutron. You are going to be VERY disappointed in Z-Wave lighting if you're coming from Insteon.

Hubitat groups--if you mean from the Groups and Scenes app--are, for the most part, not anything special; they're mostly the hub doing a bit of work for you so that you can use one "proxy" device to manipulate the member devices (on/off, level, color, etc., depending on the capabilities--though the group will show you all regardless) and optionally view something about their states (that's what the options you can configure like having the group device show on/off based on the member devices do). This makes it easier to, for example, use devices in apps/rules without needing to specify the same thing for a bunch of individual devices or to change out the member devices without changing the devices in every app, etc.. For Z-Wave and LAN devices, that's about it. For Zigbee devices, there is the option to enable Zigbee group messaging, which can help by sending one command once that all group devices (if all Zigbee, otherwise of course just the Zigbee ones) should hear instead of having to send the same command to each device one-by-one. That's the only advantage from a technical perspective.

So...basically, groups can be nice, but they are probably not what you're looking for. What it does sound like you're looking for is Z-Wave Association. I really don't think a lot of people on Hubitat use this (most new-ish devices where you'd want to use this also support Z-Wave Central Scenes, usually interpreted as button events by the driver on the hub, and it's pretty easy to assign some automation using the hub to whatever devices you ultimately want--which it sounds like you're doing and aren't happy with its performance, but whether that's the fact that the hub is acting as a middleman or just the way the devices themselves work, it sounds like none of us know). In fact, Hubitat doesn't have anything built-in for using Z-Wave association groups. There is at least one third-party utility that was written for this purpose: Hubitat/Apps/z-waveat at master · InovelliUSA/Hubitat · GitHub (technically written with the manufacturer's, Inovelli's, own devices in mind, but it should work with other devices, too). The unofficial (not built-in but available) Basic Z-Wave Tool from Hubitat may also be helpful if you want to set a specific parameter to a specific value (you will obviously need the devices' manuals to know what to do with that).

Also, if you need a lot of these and aren't set on the Wallmote, a lot of people like Lutron Pico Remotes for control of lights or pretty much anything that Hubitat can control (like the Wallmote, it's just a button device you can use to do literally anything with Hubitat). You'll need the Lutron Smart Bridge Pro to make them work with Hubitat, which is a bit of a steep investment for just a few button devices, but since you're considering the Aeon products, it's really only the cost of about two of those. Then the Pico devices themselves are usually pretty cheap--the white 5-button ("3 button with raise/lower" in Lutron terms) Pico can often be found for under $13. So for the cost of just three Wallmotes, you could get the Smart Bridge Pro plus the same number of Picos, then the total cost per device only goes down in favor of the Picos from there. These do support the ability to "associate" themselves directly to Lutron switches without putting Hubitat in the middle (sort of like you can with Z-Wave), but I've never done that--a lot of devices I automate are not Lutron, and the performance even with Hubitat in the middle is still so good that I've never been tempted to.

And unlike the Aeon, these will fit in a standard US decorator plate, so you might be able to convince other people that they are actual light switches, and they should be fairly intuitive to use. :slight_smile: The battery life claims (10 years) are also impressive. I haven't had any for that long yet but don't doubt that I'll probably get somewhere close (Lutron's claims are usually pretty conservative), and it's likely to be a lot better than a 500-series Z-Wave device in any case. Lots of people on the forum use and love Picos. I resisted for a while (I tried a lot of other devices first--Hue Dimmer, Eria Remote, and whatever I could do with the 30-second battery life on my super-old Aeon Minimotes) but eventually caved. I'm a fan now, too.

Just another option to consider since you said you weren't totally attached. :slight_smile: But I'd try experimenting with association first since if you don't totally hate the Wallmote since you already have it.

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Thank you very much for the detailed reply. Yes, I am indeed thinking about Asociations - I did not see that mentioned in the Hubitat apps, so I just assumed it was called Groups here, as it is in X10 and Insteon. My bad. I will definitely look into the third-party utilities you are mentioning.

Also, am I correct to assume that I could set up the Associations with any other separate utility as long as it does not work as the main controller? There seems to be a few of those as well (that I could run on my PC from a stick and then pack it up). The problem with the experimentation that I've done so far is that the drivers for those tend to just pick up click events on the Wallmote, and not press events. :frowning: I hope I have better luck with the utilities you mention.

UPDATE: I tried to the Inovelli app, but it only allows Association Group up to 5 and I need higher. Oh well.

As to other buttons/controllers, Lutron seem to have only a miniscule following in Europe (and a non-existing one in Sweden - sorry, should have mentioned that), and the Smart Bridge Pro does not seem to exist in a 220V version? Anyhow - unfortunately they can't be associated with the DIN Dimmers anyway, so... :frowning:

(DIN Dimmers and battery-operated buttons/switches are a must in my case.)

Thank you. I think I will be fine as long as I get the associations working. Insteon is not exactly a dream either - I have continually been getting super-long delays and missed commands every now and then, despite a ton of repeaters. Honestly, I find it hard to believe that anything can be worse than Insteon has been.

Are you using the Insteon Hub or using another controller with a PLM? It sounds like the typical communications errors from a failing Hub or PLM. Could be a failing device causing lots of noise on the lines as well....

I switched from Z-Wave to Insteon for my lighting a little over a year ago and I'm very pleased compared to Z-Wave. At some point I'll finally just upgrade everything to Lutron RadioRA2. I have the Main Repeater just need switches.