Bad Rule/setup or ZigBee issue?

v6turbo · January 9, 2023, 2:43am

Hello

i have bunch of the zengle type RGB lights in my hall and around the house.

my hall has 4 light fixtures with 3 lights each the HUB is in a room at the front of the hall. this hal has motion sensors and a rule base off that

basically any motion in any part of the hall turns on all the lights.

now sometimes it work perfect and other time only one or 2 groups of lights will turn on (its wiere its always a group that misses never just few lights)
Other times it work but take 2-5 seconds to get all the lights on (basicaly walk down the 40 foot hall and the light just start turning on lol)

how do i figure this out ? i tried:
grouping al lights into one group
grouping all the groups (4) into one group
using the motion group feature for motion

the only thing i can is to split the lights and motions sensors up but don't really want that

here is my zigbee status

Parent child parameters
EzspGetParentChildParametersResponse [childCount=12, parentEui64=0000000000000000, parentNodeId=65535]

Child Data
child:[Alli Bottom Nail Light, 6B3C, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall front 2, F815, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Alli Chandelier 3 , 57AE, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Living Room ceiling motion tv, D53B, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall Pool 3, FE86, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall hot water leak , CD64, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall front 3, 6C13, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Alli Middle Light, 1F0F, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
No information for Child 8
child:[Hall front 1, C82D, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
No information for Child 10
No information for Child 11

Neighbor Table Entry
[Kitchen undercab sink, 2DF7], LQI:243, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Washer, 492E], LQI:200, age:5, inCost:5, outCost:1
[Hall repeater front, 4E34], LQI:254, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:3
[ZigBee repeat dinning room , 5943], LQI:226, age:3, inCost:5, outCost:7
[null, 81C9], LQI:33, age:7, inCost:7, outCost:0
[ZigBee repeat hall , 8508], LQI:254, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:5
[Kitchen undercab peninsula, 8FE2], LQI:172, age:7, inCost:7, outCost:0
[Storage light, 9CA1], LQI:254, age:7, inCost:1, outCost:0
[Kitchen under cabinet spice, A2D9], LQI:225, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Kitchen undercab coffee, CB01], LQI:253, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:7
[Garage Relay, CE8F], LQI:241, age:7, inCost:5, outCost:0
[Kitchen undercab corner, E133], LQI:205, age:5, inCost:5, outCost:7
[ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6], LQI:254, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:3
[Kitchen under cabinet stove, F03C], LQI:191, age:7, inCost:7, outCost:0

Route Table Entry
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Front entryway ceiling motion , 5841] via [Hall repeater front, 4E34]
status:In Discovery, age:0, routeRecordState:2, concentratorType:High Ram, [null, 0000] via [Washer, 492E]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Kitchen undercab corner, E133] via [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6]
status:Unused
status:Unused
status:Unused
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Hall master 1, E3D9] via [ZigBee repeat hall , 8508]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [ZigBee repeat hall , 8508] via [null, 0AA5]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Alli Chandelier 2, C810] via [null, 0AA5]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Garage Relay, CE8F] via [Washer, 492E]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Alli Chandelier 4, 4328] via [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Kid bath ceiling motion , 943B] via [ZigBee repeat hall , 8508]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [kitchen table 1, 7D7C] via [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6]

here is my very simple motion lighting rule

brad5 · January 9, 2023, 1:32pm

What happens if you activate the various groups manually, or activate the devices within the groups manually? Are some more responsive than others? If so I'd suspect a zigbee mesh issue. There are some high incost and outcost figures in your neighbors table which leads me to believe some of your repeaters are not doing such a great job repeating. Not sure what that one null device is, but in scanning the forum it doesn't look like that big a deal. You could also try turning logging on for the rule and the motion sensors and see where the delay is coming from.

Tony · January 9, 2023, 2:31pm

I agree with @brad5, the mesh looks pretty weak.

Interesting child data table; I think you may have the highest number of direct-connected devices in a child table that anyone has ever posted. Not that there is anything technically wrong with that; it's well within the limit of 32 child devices. But usually when there are a couple of viable repeaters near the hub they tend to attract the majority of the end device connections.

None of your repeaters are showing connections that are strong bidirectionally; 2DF7, 5943, 8FE2, 9CA1, A2D9, CB01, CE8F, E133, F03C, and 81C9 (which evidently has left the network and rejoined recently, likely due to a weak connection) aren't showing connections good enough to be repeaters (shown by inCost 7 or 0 figures; you want nonzero numbers, ideally '1'). You usually see 'null' appearing (instead of a device name) when a device has left the mesh and recently rejoined (likely due to a weak signal) and acquired a new short ID.

The remaining four (492E, 4E34, 8508 and EBE6) are the only ones capable of extending your range... and even they don't rank high bidirectionally.

Try relocating a couple of repeaters closer to the hub; if they get a good connection, you'll see LQI 255 and both inCost and outCost showing '1' in the neighbor table. That may be enough to improve the connections throughout the mesh.

jtmpush18 · January 9, 2023, 4:00pm

@v6turbo
Now that the experts have determined that you need more/better repeaters, may I recommend the new Sonoff USB dongle. It's somewhat difficult to pair, but it's exceptional in the strength of its signal, and inexpensive.
(Please see other forum posts on how to setup, especially the guide by @danabw ).

danabw · January 9, 2023, 5:22pm

Here...

They seem to have the additional benefit (as far as I've seen) of playing better w/Aqara & Xiaomi devices than other repeaters.

v6turbo · January 10, 2023, 3:22am

yes they work fin manually
the biggest offender is less than 10 feet from the hub in fact al lthese hall are the closest devices to the hub.
i can try logging
weird i dont really have any trouble with anyother lights sometimes a command here and there but 99% - its just the hall lights

v6turbo · January 10, 2023, 3:29am

i was thinking about this repeater, I have 3 repeaters 2 of them are in the hall (to try and help this, and get signal into my master bedroom.
i also though maybe i needed repeaters because of the child limit but it hasn't helped. my kitchen has 6 under cab lights and that side of the house still has an issue sometimes

the issue is our pool room in the in the middle so the signal needs to bounce in a upside down "L" to get to the hub or push through the walls from the kitchen but hardly have issues there

its the stuff CLOSE to the hub with issues

I also set my mesh for channel 25 and turn off Channel 11 on my Aruba WIFI so there should not be any interference

danabw · January 10, 2023, 3:37am

I'm afraid I don't know anything about that repeater. Tagging @aaiyar in case he's seen it in the wild.

One thing you can try is to turn off and unplug your hub (from the wall) for 20 minutes. Then plug it back in and let it boot up. Doing this puts your Zigbee devices in "panic mode" - that sounds bad but it isn't. Your Zigbee devices will rebuild their neighbor tables and route back to the hub. That should help clean up Zigbee device routing a bit.

v6turbo · January 10, 2023, 3:38am

Tony:

I agree with @brad5, the mesh looks pretty weak.

Interesting child data table; I think you may have the highest number of direct-connected devices in a child table that anyone has ever posted. Not that there is anything technically wrong with that; it's well within the limit of 32 child devices. But usually when there are a couple of viable repeaters near the hub they tend to attract the majority of the end device connections.

None of your repeaters are showing connections that are strong bidirectionally; 2DF7, 5943, 8FE2, 9CA1, A2D9, CB01, CE8F, E133, F03C, and 81C9 (which evidently has left the network and rejoined recently, likely due to a weak connection) aren't showing connections good enough to be repeaters (shown by inCost 7 or 0 figures; you want nonzero numbers, ideally '1'). You usually see 'null' appearing (instead of a device name) when a device has left the mesh and recently rejoined (likely due to a weak signal) and acquired a new short ID.

The remaining four (492E, 4E34, 8508 and EBE6) are the only ones capable of extending your range... and even they don't rank high bidirectionally.

Try relocating a couple of repeaters closer to the hub; if they get a good connection, you'll see LQI 255 and both inCost and outCost showing '1' in the neighbor table. That may be enough to improve the connections throughout the mesh.

so to educat myself --

here is refresh today (hall reapter front was installed saturday)

note the office motion talking to the hall front............. umm why it has 6 repeaters 20 feet away in the kichen (undercab stuff)
that front hall is 70 feet throught 5 walls.............. lol wth ?

Parent child parameters
EzspGetParentChildParametersResponse [childCount=13, parentEui64=0000000000000000, parentNodeId=65535]

Child Data
child:[Alli Bottom Nail Light, 6B3C, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall front 2, F815, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Alli Chandelier 3 , 57AE, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Living Room ceiling motion tv, D53B, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall Pool 3, FE86, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall hot water leak , CD64, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall front 3, 6C13, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Alli Middle Light, 1F0F, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Dining ceiling motion, 06A7, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall front 1, C82D, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
No information for Child 10
No information for Child 11
child:[Entryway floor lamp top, AEA3, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]

Neighbor Table Entry
[Kitchen undercab sink, 2DF7], LQI:248, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:7
[Garage Relay, 3459], LQI:248, age:5, inCost:3, outCost:7
[Washer, 492E], LQI:252, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:1
[Hall repeater front, 4E34], LQI:254, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:2
[ZigBee repeat dinning room , 5943], LQI:244, age:5, inCost:5, outCost:7
[null, 81C9], LQI:100, age:4, inCost:7, outCost:7
[ZigBee repeat hall , 8508], LQI:252, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:5
[Kitchen undercab peninsula, 8FE2], LQI:120, age:5, inCost:7, outCost:7
[Kitchen undercab coffee, 9992], LQI:252, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:7
[Storage light, 9CA1], LQI:254, age:7, inCost:1, outCost:0
[Kitchen under cabinet spice, A2D9], LQI:247, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:7
[Kitchen undercab corner, E133], LQI:239, age:7, inCost:5, outCost:0
[ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6], LQI:254, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:3
[Kitchen under cabinet stove, F03C], LQI:218, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7

Route Table Entry
status:In Discovery, age:0, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [null, D638] via [ZigBee repeat dinning room , 5943]
status:Active, age:0, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Wash Room Motion, 1743] via [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Garage Relay, 3459] via [Washer, 492E]
status:Unused
status:Unused
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Office ceiling motion , 49C7] via [Hall repeater front, 4E34]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Hall master 1, E3D9] via [ZigBee repeat hall , 8508]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [ZigBee repeat hall , 8508] via [Hall repeater front, 4E34]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Alli Chandelier 2, C810] via [Hall repeater front, 4E34]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Alli Chandelier 4, 4328] via [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Kid bath ceiling motion , 943B] via [ZigBee repeat hall , 8508]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [kitchen table 1, 7D7C] via [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6]

aaiyar · January 10, 2023, 3:43am

Tube’s ZB repeaters are pretty nice.

v6turbo · January 10, 2023, 4:23am

last time i tried this i forgot to plug it back in and nearly die tripping over stuff cause the lights didn't turn on and locks/doors didn't work and wife was locked out lol

I have 75 zigbee devices in my devices list

danabw · January 10, 2023, 5:19am

Sounds like @aaiyar thinks the repeaters you have found are worthy...I think getting your gear in place and then doing the panic mode, following by waiting a few days for things to settle could be a good approach.

Tony · January 10, 2023, 4:08pm

For the symptoms you reported, there seems to be a pattern:

"these hall are the closest devices to the hub."

"i dont really have any trouble with anyother lights sometimes a command here and there but 99% - its just the hall lights"

"its the stuff CLOSE to the hub with issues"

This sure seems to be consistent with the hub not reporting a single neighbor with a connection that falls into the 'best' category (one with LQI of 255, and both inCost and outCost equal to 1). That's an unusual scenario; I'd expect just about every installation with a few good repeaters within range of the hub to show a good bidirectional connection on at least one of them.

So I'd suggest trying to address this isssue first-- if you can't (meaning, you cannot get the hub to establish a strong connection to any neighbor router, even one directly adjacent to the hub), your hub's radio or internal antenna may not be up to snuff (or something is swamping its transmisssions with interference).

If you do relocate one of your repeaters for this experiment, you shouldn't need to wait very long to see the results reflected in the hub's neighbor table. Zigbee router links exchange status every 15 seconds, so within minutes you should be able to tell if the inCost/outCost scenario has improved. There's no need to wait for a nightly maintenance as you must with Z-Wave (dead Zigbee routing paths get taken out of the pool dynamically even when idle, without needing to wait for them to be used, fail, and retried like Z-Wave). The Zigbee heal (with hub off) does benefit from a longer (20 minute or so) wait; that forces the hub's direct-connectedchild devices (which don't check their link status as often) to look for another parent router.

v6turbo · January 11, 2023, 12:51am

i moved "zigbee repeat hall" closer to the node it about 12 feet away though a wall (this wall allows bluetooth to the xbox just fine)

Parent child parameters
EzspGetParentChildParametersResponse [childCount=13, parentEui64=0000000000000000, parentNodeId=65535]

Child Data
child:[Alli Bottom Nail Light, 6B3C, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall front 2, F815, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Alli Chandelier 3 , 57AE, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Living Room ceiling motion tv, D53B, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall Pool 3, FE86, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall hot water leak , CD64, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall front 3, 6C13, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Alli Middle Light, 1F0F, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
child:[Dining ceiling motion, 06A7, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall front 1, C82D, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]
No information for Child 10
No information for Child 11
child:[Entryway floor lamp top, AEA3, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]

Neighbor Table Entry
[Kitchen undercab sink, 2DF7], LQI:246, age:3, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Garage Relay, 3459], LQI:252, age:3, inCost:3, outCost:3
[Washer, 492E], LQI:253, age:3, inCost:3, outCost:1
[Hall repeater front, 4E34], LQI:254, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:2
[ZigBee repeat dinning room , 5943], LQI:252, age:1, inCost:3, outCost:7
[null, 81C9], LQI:27, age:7, inCost:7, outCost:0
[ZigBee repeat hall , 8508], LQI:241, age:3, inCost:5, outCost:5
[Kitchen undercab peninsula, 8FE2], LQI:102, age:3, inCost:7, outCost:7
[Kitchen undercab coffee, 9992], LQI:245, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Storage light, 9CA1], LQI:252, age:7, inCost:3, outCost:0
[Kitchen under cabinet spice, A2D9], LQI:245, age:3, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Kitchen undercab corner, E133], LQI:248, age:3, inCost:3, outCost:7
[ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6], LQI:244, age:3, inCost:5, outCost:5
[Kitchen under cabinet stove, F03C], LQI:221, age:3, inCost:5, outCost:7

Route Table Entry
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Garage Relay, 3459] via [Washer, 492E]
status:In Discovery, age:0, routeRecordState:2, concentratorType:High Ram, [null, 0000] via [Garage Relay, 3459]
status:Unused
status:Unused
status:Active, age:0, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Wash Room Motion, 1743] via [Washer, 492E]
status:Unused
status:Unused
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Hall master 1, E3D9] via [ZigBee repeat hall , 8508]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [ZigBee repeat hall , 8508] via [Hall repeater front, 4E34]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Alli Chandelier 2, C810] via [Hall repeater front, 4E34]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Alli Chandelier 4, 4328] via [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Kitchen Button, 17B6] via [Washer, 492E]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Kid bath ceiling motion , 943B] via [ZigBee repeat hall , 8508]

edit: are high "cost" better or lower cost?

brad5 · January 11, 2023, 2:09pm

Lower

Tony · January 11, 2023, 2:19pm

...with the exception of zero; outCost showing '0' means the remote side of the path hasn't sent its link status (that status being how well it is 'hearing' the signal from the hub, i.e. the outCost figure it has computed from its measure of LQI) with several 15-sec reporting intervals and is considered MIA. It won't be used for routing and its entry can be evicted from the neighbor table if space for another neighbor is needed.

Tony · January 11, 2023, 3:52pm

Here's what I notice in your neighbor table. I highlighted in different colors the active repeaters (and their corresponding route entries for which they are the 'first hop router' to reach a given device) as well as flagging in red and green the worst/best link cost indicators:

Ideally you want to see in/out cost figures approaching '1', indicating strong reception and transmission.

As a point of reference, here's what I see in a current snapshot of the neighbor table for my Zigbee mesh (about 85 devices, similar in size to yours):

If the closest repeater to your hub is 12 feet away through a wall, that definitely differs from my setup; I've probably got a dozen or more repeaters (not dedicated repeaters, just devices that happen to also repeat) within that radius. The walls of my house aren't dense, either; typical frame/drywall construction.

v6turbo · January 12, 2023, 4:04am

Wierd how is wash the wrong signals? It is the furthest from the hub through many walls and appliances

My mesh is jacked UHG

Tony · January 12, 2023, 3:45pm

Hard to say without just speculating. Could be relections or blockages, antennas oriented in just the right or wrong way. Antenna theory isn't intuitive as this video (courtesy of my alma mater) illustrates: https://www.coursera.org/lecture/iot-communications/lecture-3-signal-propagation-L2qva

This gives you an appreciation for the non-symmetrical nature of transmission and reception; path loss effects in real-world environments are equally important (the 6 minute mark of that video shows how much more there is to consider than just attenuation). Ultimately you can't use the 'free air' nominal range of a device as a guide to predict how it will function; instead you need to provide multiple short range paths-- and an effective routing strategy to choose the best one-to get transmissions through.

With the hub's neighbor table data, you can see 'what the devices see' to some extent. It's an effective way to gauge the link quality of the 'one hop bubble' radius around your hub. Again I'd suggest placing a good repeater even closer to the hub and see if it establishes a strong link, as it still seems odd that the hub doesn't show any neighbors in the best inCost/outCost rank. Or try relocating your hub if that is practical.

If you don't want to put up with flaky intermittent issues (and lacking any other diagnostic tools), experimenting with device placement may pay off; the improvements in the link stats should be a good indicator if you're headed in the right direction.

scoob8000 · January 12, 2023, 8:14pm

I'd say pick up a zigbee outlet to serve as a repeater. Or a lot of folks like the tuya usb repeaters that go for around $18.

If you have an ikea nearby their outlet runs around 12 bucks and is a great repeater that will report it's neighbors too.

Are your lights zigbee? Some lights are very bad repeaters and can hurt your mesh. Not familier with the ones you have.

I recently went thru some zigbee issues, and they were completely solved by adding a couple more repeating devices.