Alternatives to using ST presence

[SmartHomePrimer]

@ogiewon I submit for healthy debate that the list really has two categories; Location (Geolocation) and Presence (two devices connecting in a local short-range network)

In my mind, I’ve always categorized Geolocation as anything cellular based that has a minimum range of 400ft (Because that’s the lowest detection range I’ve seen for something cellular based), and call Location for shorthand, as do the phone manufacturers.

For anything Zigbee, Bluetooth or WiFi, I have always considered it to be Presence because it uses short distance radio waves that only indicate a users presence when a device connects to a local transmitter or mesh network, not via triangulation.

I do not consider anything the detects a user motion to be presence detection, because the object or person must continue to move for detection to remain active.

How does everyone else see this distinction, or do you? I think it's important, at least in creating automations, that there is some kind of understanding and distinction of the two types, how they react and how they should be used together. Otherwise we start wondering things like "Why did [all] my lights suddenly turn on" when our phones or devices briefly lose and regain the local connection that is triggering presence.

Oh, and to add to that nice list you created, there are two types of IFTTT detection. One is Geolocation using triangulation of your phone to the cell towers, and the other is and IFTTT trigger when your phone connects or disconnects from supported WiFI devices. This is what I use for "Presence" with our phones and my TP-Link Deco M5 mesh WiFi.

Also, just to confirm, I'm one of the users that has the Homebridge/HomeKit "Location" service working with HE. Requirements are a node.js server to run Homebridge, an iOS device obviously, and either an Apple TV 4 or later, or an always on iPad that can run the latest iOS. I think @csteele is also using this method if I'm not mistaken.

[raidflex]

@ogiewon

Here is my list of methods I have seen people use to achieve Presence Detection with Hubitat. This might help you if you'd like to create something new. Options are a good thing!

This list does help but unfortunately most of these options require the use of IOS, which I do not use or another hub running like ST. The virtual presence switch is probably something I will look into. I do have Iris Fobs as presence which are in both cars, but I am finding there can be long delays, sometimes even minutes until it reconnects to HE. This is even with the garage being under the house and a Iris Plug directly above the garage to repeat the signal.

The problem with any WiFi or Zigbee/Z-wave solution is you generally need to be very close to the house before it will work. I have light that turn on at night based on presence and by the time these devices would trigger the light its too late.

[bertabcd1234]

@SmartHomePrimer

Also, just to confirm, I'm one of the users that has the Homebridge/HomeKit "Location" service working with HE.

I tried this myself, and it's a shame there's apparently no way to make it work without turning on the entire "Share My Location" feature (also used for Find My Friends and whatnot). I'd rather just give the Home app "Always" access to my location like Reminders and other apps where background location is useful can do and have that be the "trigger." I appreciate reading about options you and a couple others have posted about--I thought this was going to be the one (low battery consumption, native to the OS), but I guess I'll have to read about the other options again. This makes them easy to find, at least.

[raidflex]

Maybe an external WiFi AP may be the only way to get the signal far enough, but even then it depends on a lot of factors.

I think the biggest problem is not presence itself, its reliable detection, even with Life360 sometimes it does not work for various reasons.

[keithcroshaw]

Yea I feel like an iOS expert but struggled with getting this working. Maybe that was my problem.
I don't want that noise enabled...

[bertabcd1234]

@keithcroshaw

Yea I feel like an iOS expert but struggled with getting this working. Maybe that was my problem.
I don't want that noise enabled...

Yep, I struggled too until I read Apple's instructions: Create scenes and automations - Apple Support

Unlike regular location access, the Home app won't prompt you to enable this feature if it it isn't already. The location-based automation just won't work.

[csteele]

@bertabcd1234

it's a shame there's apparently no way to make it work without turning on the entire "Share My Location" feature

Is that true? I am using iOS for presence and it's been perfect for a couple years now, ST last year and Hubitat this year... both via Homebridge.

In iOS Settings: Privacy:Location Services:Share My Location:
That section is setting which device that has your name/ID attached, will be authoritative as you. Which device do you consider "yours" vs a family member that is also using your Apple ID. It allows you to set which

Also in iOS Settings: Privacy:Location Services: is a list of apps that would love to use your location. Me, I turn them all off (never) except a few set to "While using" -- none of mine are set to Always. The Home app is in the list and it's set to "while using the app" and it's interesting to note that Apple does not offer the Aways option for this app. Maps are also set to "while using" because of course they don't work well without.

In other words, I'm interpreting "Share My Location" differently.

[gavincampbell]

@JulesT

I haven't really got enough into groovy to know what it can do network wise... but by the time I need to deploy another server or similar, we're getting outside the limits of what's convenient to do to my mind. Equally, a 15-minute latency wouldn't kill me for presence detection, but then it would be a question of knowing that it had been seen in that timescale.

Just looking at my ping logs from last night. Each of our phones was offline at one point for at least 10 minutes. The range was from seconds to 10 minutes when pinging every 5 seconds.

This is on an iphone 7+ and 8+.

Been doing this a long time. It sucks that my system won't arm until I'm gone for at least 15 minutes, but its nice that its instant when I arrive home.

[Somel]

I just think "there must be a better way"
Now play this in your mind with Kevin O'leary voice:)

[ogiewon]

@raidflex

This list does help but unfortunately most of these options require the use of IOS, which I do not use or another hub running like ST.

Hmmm? - Only 2 of the 11 options I listed are iOS only (Locative and Homekit). Only 1 requires ST.

[SmartHomePrimer]

I will say that my combination of HomeKit location and WiFi presence always works, but there is a speed lag sometimes when my phone doesn't connect to WiFi right away. I'm using an iPhone 6, so maybe the slower processor or outdated WiFi components are the issue. I'm just at the front door entering the code before it connect to WiFi on occasion. Other times, I'm not up my walk yet and the door unlocks.

[SmartHomePrimer]

Wondering that too. I turned most of this off for the screen shot here, but it looks to me like you could just enable HomeKit if you wanted.

[jeubanks]

@SmartHomePrimer

In my mind, I’ve always categorized Geolocation as anything cellular based that has a minimum range of 400ft (Because that’s the lowest detection range I’ve seen for something cellular based), and call Location for shorthand, as do the phone manufacturers.

You can go much smaller than 400ft with Geolocation. A good system also allows multiple geofence methods not just a circle. It depends on the device being used. Even with some cell phones you can go very small...

https://forums.simplextech.net/threads/how-to-use-in-homeseer.11/post-16

One user in testing setup a 10ft geofence inside their home. It worked. YMMV as always.

[SmartHomePrimer]

The locations that are available to the average consumer without a fee are huge though. I don't know even a fraction of what you know about the subject, so I have no understanding of how you're doing that. If the title means I have to setup Homeseer, well that's not going to happen here.

Most that I can easily hook into other services are around 900 feet in circumference. This is why I use a primary location trigger and a secondary WiFi presence trigger for accuracy and protection against false positives.

I mean this in the most constructive and non-judgmental way, but the stuff you're doing I really don't understand. The options are very confusing, or maybe I just being thick about it.

[bertabcd1234]

@csteele

Is that true? [ ... ]

In iOS Settings: Privacy:Location Services:Share My Location:
That section is setting which device that has your name/ID attached, will be authoritative as you. Which device do you consider "yours" vs a family member that is also using your Apple ID. It allows you to set which

Also in iOS Settings: Privacy:Location Services: is a list of apps that would love to use your location. Me, I turn them all off (never) except a few set to "While using" -- none of mine are set to Always. The Home app is in the list and it's set to "while using the app" and it's interesting to note that Apple does not offer the Always option for this app. [ ... ]

In other words, I'm interpreting "Share My Location" differently.

I think you, Apple, and me are all in agreement as to what "Share My Location" means. Here's what the screen looks like in the place where Apple says to enable this feature to allow location-based HomeKit automations to work:

This would be the first feature you mentioned. I'd rather not do that just for HomeKit, which is why I meant that I wish there was a way to just allow access for Home/HomeKit without everything else "Share My Location" includes. As you can see in the screenshot, "Share your location with family and friends in Messages and Find My Friends..."--no thanks. (This kind of makes sense for "guest"-type users of HomeKit who need location-based automations, but this is all set up just for me on my account and devices.) In other words, I wished it worked the second way you mentioned. I also don't like "Always" and only use "While using the app" when needed, but I'd make an exception for Home/HomeKit if I could.

@SmartHomePrimer

Wondering that too. I turned most of this off for the screen shot here, but it looks to me like you could just enable HomeKit if you wanted.

You can't. Or rather, you can (as you can clearly see in your screenshot), but it's not the issue at hand. I have that enabled, and the location-based automations still don't work. It must be the "Share My Location" feature Apple mentions in their support document above. Again, I wish there was a better way since this otherwise seems like a good option.

[csteele]

But you have no one showing in that area.

"People who can see your location will appear here." And you have no one. You enable that and you're sharing with zero.

[SmartHomePrimer]

But share my location isn't just something that happens. You have to intentionally share your location with someone via iMessage either for an hour, a day or until you stop. It's not a default.

[JasonJoelOld]

I wish there was that good of a location system for Android...

I'm still struggling w/Life 360 and HE.

[csteele]

I realize that my words, @bertabcd1234 don't contain the question sounds that I hear in my head... I'm thinking you know something about this that is adversely affecting me and I'm trying to understand where I fell down.

My fear, of course, is that I'm exposing location beyond my intent. My intent is to share it with Homebridge and for that to share it with Hubitat -- end of sharing

That Switch has always seemed like a "circuit breaker" to me. There are other more specific switches, but without that one on, very little will work.

[jeubanks]

@SmartHomePrimer

The locations that are available to the average consumer without a fee are huge though. I don't know even a fraction of what you know about the subject, so I have no understanding of how you're doing that. If the title means I have to setup Homeseer, well that's not going to happen here.

Most that I can easily hook into other services are around 900 feet in circumference. This is why I use a primary location trigger and a secondary WiFi presence trigger for accuracy and protection against false positives.

I mean this in the most constructive and non-judgmental way, but the stuff you're doing I really don't understand. The options are very confusing, or maybe I just being thick about it.

You're absolutely correct with the statement of "available to the average consumer". That is why we have released this service. Yes there's a cost so not for everyone I understand but it is still affordable.

There are real differences when using a phone for Geolocation. Not only in the OS it runs of either IOS or Android but the hardware as well. I've found serious differences even in the same phone make/model/carrier where the results are vastly different. So for phone use this is always subjective and what works great for one may not work at all for another.

As for HomeSeer... no not required. I've done testing and verified the system does work with Hubitat out of the box using Maker API. This provides (currently) the most seamless way without needing any additional "app". The post was in the HomeSeer section from one of the users form that system.

You're not being thick. The system is quite capable which makes it complex. I've been working with some HomeSeer users and i worked with @cwwilson08 with Hubitat testing with I think very good results.

Your images look like they are all "Cell Based" or LBS location pings. Whereas we utilize the Cell (LBS) and GPS. Combining both provides a more accurate location. This is optional of course. You can do GPS only and disregard LBS entirely if wanted.

One thing our system provides that others don't is flexibility in device choice. Use your phone, use a hardware tracker, use an arduino or particle board we don't care. Multiple mobile "apps" are supported so you pick what you want to use or works best with your phone. With hardware devices there's over 1500+ that are supported so there's a lot of choice and options.

You can even tie in devices through Flespi so if it can talk HTTP or MQTT then the stream can be access through Flespi and then if wanted a stream/translator from Flespi to us can be setup. This is good for those odd/custom integrations.