About to migrate 100+ devices from ST; Some questions and a request for general advice

[ArchStanton]

@danabw

to freshen things a little every once in a while.

I always exclude any device before I include it, even if I've excluded it from another hub previously. Doesn't hurt to be sure your device is clean before you try to join it.

Welcome to Hubitat.

Thank you for the advice. I am trying to follow the "Build a robust mesh" document, so I am adding in small groups.

At the moment, I am struggling to get these IRIS sensors to join. But I don't think that's on Hubitat.

[danabw]

I have a bunch of Iris motion sensors, if that's what you're referring to. Usually didn't have any problem w/them, the biggest issue is the tiny button on the side that you have to press while inserting the battery to pair them.

If you can move them closer to the hub that will help, of course.

[ArchStanton]

@danabw

the biggest issue is the tiny button on the side that you have to press while inserting the battery to pair them.

Huh... all the instructions I found said you need to do that to factory reset them, but then they should pair without the button.

Trying it now, doesn't seem to work. I'll move them closer.

I am trying both the Iris V1 and the regular Zigbee on these.

[danabw]

Assuming it's the one I have, this is what worked for me:

Iris 2nd Generation Motion Sensor Reset

Maybe we're talking about different devices? Mine are V2.

[ArchStanton]

Are you using the iris V1 join or the regular zigbee join?

[danabw]

Regular Zigbee, I used that for all my Iris motion sensors. Mine are all second gen sensors, 3326-L.

These little cutie-pies.

[ArchStanton]

@danabw

ittle cut

Yeah... I have two of those and they were very solid on ST. I can't get them to pair.

I got one to be detected... but it didn't go through all the way and now... nothing.

I am trying a reboot again. I have an IRIS V1 that was super stable back in the day, but it won't pair now. A couple ST ones that suck, etc.

I might need to buy some new ones.

[danabw]

Odd, mine paired pretty easily, IRRC.

[Brandon]

Is your smartthings hub still on? It is possible that they are causing channel interference. Typically I recommend pairing all devices in place, not bringing them close to the hub. Once the mesh is built out with some zigbee repeaters the Iris Motions typically pair very easily.

[ArchStanton]

After a couple HE reboots and letting them sit after reset... They paired and are working fine. Thanks for the help.

[dJOS]

Regardless of what hub you are coming over from, the best advice I can give (from personal experience) is to start small, get comfortable and familiar with the new platform. Only then progressively migrate the bulk of your z-wave and ZigBee devices to the new platform.

If I had taken the big bang approach to openHAB, Home Assistant, and HomeSeer when I was evaluating replacements for my Vera Hubs; I would have crashed and burned so hard my wife would have banned me from automating anymore of the house and most likely demanded a return to manual switches et al.

You also need to read up on compatible devices and be prepared to ditch some - for me this was Thermostats. For most ppl I'd say if you have non-zwave+ devices, don't migrate them, replace them first.

I took this sensible approach to migrating our house to the HE C7 and it has been an amazing experience. I've now retired all other Hubs.

/2c

[bill.d]

The Leviton dimmers definitely need to be updated to work properly. You can do it with a z-stick or Hubitat has an app to do that. The files are available in the linked post below (you have to extract the bin files from one of the .exe to get a bin file).

[RELEASE] Z-Wave Firmware Updater

Leviton has released files to update the z-wave switches at Link | Leviton Filetransfer . I had a spare z-wave stick that I used to do the updates on my dimmers and switches. I then noticed the info for ResourcesExtract.exe, it can extract the bin file from the exe.

[erktrek]

So a thought or two..

• Get a Z-Stick for easy exclusions, possible ghost removal and to be able to include as unsecured non-S2 Zwave+ devices that force S0 security. Note: S0 is not something you want everywhere on your network if possible, it's too "chatty" - only locks and other critical stuff maybe.

Amazon.com: AEOTEC Z-Stick Gen5 Z-Wave Hub Z-Wave Plus USB to Create Gateway...

• From other threads.. my experience with C-4 to C-7 migration.

@erktrek

I would be careful bringing stuff over piecemeal you can mess up both meshes and lower WAF to the extreme - the issue is other connected devices can suddenly go out of range when you exclude and either your original hub becomes erratic and/or you have difficulty including/controlling the new one.

To mitigate this you might want to start with a "skeleton" layout of some devices on your new hub (I've used extenders) that can act as repeaters - pair them in an outward fashion from the hub. Then when migrating - do the opposite, go from outward back in.. I am in the process of doing this now for my C-4 to C-7 migration and it seems to be working well so far..

@erktrek

One thing you could do if you had a mix of Z-Wave and Zigbee is migrate one set of devices over first. I am doing this with my C-7 migration. Of course I am also thinking about putting the Zigbee stuff on a C-5 but will make that decision once all ZW have been moved over.

[ArchStanton]

So I have a lot of questions.

I have been using HA with ST and some other systems for about 5 years. But the details of ZWave networks have eluded me. And when I go looking for details, I find them EXTREMELY hard to discover. Almost like they are The Secrets of the Elders and are protected in a vault somewhere.

So maybe you guys can answer or link to some answers for me...

Yesterday I added my first group of ZWave devices (and a couple Zigbees).

Checking the ZWave Settings menu, at first things looked good. But as I went to bed, several of the devices were "Non-Responsive" and had no routes. So I clicked "Repair ZWave Network" (as suggested by the Guide and by several users).

This morning it said the repair was done and gave some stats. But not every device was listed as OK. Some listed as Failed, some didn't have routes. However, everything I tried to control worked.

So some questions:

1. What is that Topology Map? Is that a map of each DIRECT connection a device has with others? Or a map of possible routes from endpoint to endpoint? Does a blue square mean a message can go from A->D if it passed through some unknown B,C? I thought that everything moves through the Hub (unless I am using secondary controllers, which I am not).

2. What is a cluster? What can it tell me?

3. Are those routes the last route used? Why do things work if they don't have a route in the table?

4. Can I control some of these routes? In several routes, there are extremely short bounces that don't necessarily need to be taken (for example, two switches in the same box).

5. What are some of these entries in the ZWave Settings table without names, that say "Discover"? Are those the Ghost nodes? Where did they come from?

6. Where can I find more info about using my ZStick? I have heard a lot of "Use a ZStick to do this thing" but I have no idea how or in some cases what the point of "this thing" is?

7. Putting that all together, if I look at that ZWave table, what can it tell me? Or do I just use it to troubleshoot when a device starts to work improperly?

Thank you!

[danabw]

In line below:

@ArchStanton

So some questions:

1. What is that Topology Map? Is that a map of each DIRECT connection a device has with others? Or a map of possible routes from endpoint to endpoint? Does a blue square mean a message can go from A->D if it passed through some unknown B,C? I thought that everything moves through the Hub (unless I am using secondary controllers, which I am not).

• See the link below:
  2.2.4 - C7 Z-Wave Node Health, Topology, and Routes

2. What is a cluster? What can it tell me?

• I'll leave this for someone else.

3. Are those routes the last route used? Why do things work if they don't have a route in the table?

• Yes, they show the most recent route used. Sometimes the routing may not appear temporarily, particularly w/battery powered devices. But unless they stop working it's a "Don't worry, be happy" situation.

4. Can I control some of these routes? In several routes, there are extremely short bounces that don't necessarily need to be taken (for example, two switches in the same box).

• "Not yet." HE staff have hinted at this in the future, but not now.

5. What are some of these entries in the ZWave Settings table without names, that say "Discover"? Are those the Ghost nodes? Where did they come from?

• Discover is an option that allows you to try to get a device that hasn't completed its join properly to finish. Clicking on it may allow the device pairing to complete, but not always.
• If you have a device in this state it may be recoverable, maybe not. If Discover doesn't work then you may have to remove the device. If a Remove button does not appear, try hitting Refresh (may take repeated uses) to see if a Remove button appears, then use the Remove option (which again may take multiple tries).
• It is always best to remove power from any device you are trying to remove - if the hub can ping it, it likely will not be removed. If it's an in-wall switch you can use the air-gap to kill power, or hit a breaker.
• If you can't remove it w/the Remove button, then see the Ghost Removal info in #6 below.

6. Where can I find more info about using my ZStick? I have heard a lot of "Use a ZStick to do this thing" but I have no idea how or in some cases what the point of "this thing" is?

• I wrote up a guide on using a Z-Wave stick to remove ghosts...you can also use it to join devices to your mesh, or to do FW updates.
  Ghost Removal - Who you gonna call?

• The iBlinds site has a write-up on doing FW OTA updates using a Z-Wave stick that could be applied to other devices aside from their blinds:
  Z-Wave Stick OTA FW Updates - iBlinds

7. Putting that all together, if I look at that ZWave table, what can it tell me? Or do I just use it to troubleshoot when a device starts to work improperly?

• Basically the general advice is to not look at unless you notice a problem while using your devices and automations. If you do have a problem it may help you determine which device is not connected/has bad routing etc. But routing can look awful to you but still work w/out issue.

[dJOS]

@ArchStanton

Basically the general advice is to not look at unless you notice a problem while using your devices and automations. If you do have a problem it may help you determine which device is not connected/has bad routing etc. But routing can look awful to you but still work w/out issue.

This is excellent advice and applies to most zwave platforms. If it Works, ignore any weird looking routing.

[danabw]

@dJOS

If it Works, ignore any weird looking routing.

Which also applies to marriages, in my experience.

[dJOS]

@danabw

Which also applies to marriages,

[ArchStanton]

Another quick question... why is it good practice to NOT set up automations while I build out the mesh? Does having an automation running (like Zigbee Motion -> ZWave Light + Timer Off) cause an issue with building out the Zwave connections? Or does the controller resist mesh changes once automations are running?

[erktrek]

Probably because you might experience erratic or unexpected behavior as the mesh changes and think something is wrong with your automations. You should be able to set things up concurrently though as rules are on a different "layer" than the devices and mesh communications...