A power outage that may have damaged my devices

I upgraded from a C5 when the C8 came out and at first, and the migration went well and it all worked. Everything was nice and snappy and a bit of a refreshing change from some slow down that would occur occasionally with my older hub.

Then, a few months after, this past summer, my z-wave network completely crapped out on me. Devices would not respond at all, would not update their status, and those that worked were sluggish all around. Trust me when I say I combed over every forum post I could find that might be potentially relevant, and nothing seemed to work. Only when I got a z-wave stick to try to kill any dead nodes (not that I could find any) and set it all up on the computer with Simplicity, did everything magically start working as it should. I left it connected to the network for awhile, afraid that it would all implode again when I turned that computer off. Eventually, I turned of the computer and removed the stick, and everything kept working just fine. Problem solved, right?

About a month later, we had a power outage that lasted 8 hours and my UPS gave out after a few hours, so the whole system sat unpowered for 4-5 hours. When I got everything turned back on, my zigbee network was trashed and completely unresponsive. I let it sit for a few days and it slowly rebuilt a lot of the pieces, which was super frustrating as some of the lamps I use are all zigbee bulbs and couldn't be turned on. After awhile, everything was working well again, except none of my Sengled bulbs worked, except for a couple I was able to get to reconnect successfully. I tried and tried again to get the remaining ones to pair again, and even some brand new ones, but nothing works. I've combed the forums again, moved them closer, farther, tried all 3 pairing modes available for zigbee since the 2.3.6.xxx firmware updates, moved back to older firmware versions, but not a single one of my remaining bulbs will pair. They all either never get spotted by the Hubitat, or start initializing and never finish. I've factory reset them every time too. All my reading shows that I'm clearly not the only one experiencing this issue with the C8, but nothing seems to be getting done about it. I've also tried swapping around zigbee channels, changing the power up and down, non of which did anything except break the network for a few days so that it could rebuild itself again.

I made my peace for now with the bulbs for now as the 2 that did manage to rejoin the network are the key ones along with a few Tradfri bulbs I have that rejoined without any issues.

Now, a few months later again. My Z-way network started failing utterly and completely. Nearly every one of my approx. 40 devices became unresponsive. I went through the entire network and noticed that one of my zooz switches wasn't showing on the z-wave details page, even though it was still on the devices page. I attempt about 20 different ways of removing it, but nothing would include or exclude on the z-wave network. Even brand new devices wouldn't pair. I reconnected my z-wave stick to try and fix some nodes that looked like they may have become ghosts, but my stick was one of them, so I couldn't do much and the repair/remove options did nothing. I killed a few WLED devices that were clogging up the works maybe and purged a z-wave plug that I only ever have plugged in at Christmas time and then I finally was able to kill a node with my stick and was able to pair a new device. I copied the app settings from my switch that appeared broken and successfully removed it and installed a whole new switch, paired it and properly removed the z-stick from the network this time. I was able to use the repair function to reconnect a few devices that didn't seem to come back to life after I got the z-wave mesh somewhat working again (mostly outlets). It seems to be working again, sort of. About a dozen different devices either randomly don't work, or are super slow to respond, taking up to a minute to complete the command. My garage door doesn't respond half the time, and doesn't update it's open or closed status most of the time, so I get notifications that my alarm couldn't arm because a door was open, or it simply won't open or close because it thinks it's already in that state, when it's not.

I've considered deleting the whole z-wave network and rebuilding from scratch, but if I do that, I'm not staying on this ecosystem. The sheer amount of stress and frustration I've experienced in the past 8 or 9 months is a deal breaker and I'm about to throw this damn thing in the garbage and move on. I've combed through my logs and see no indicators of any of the issues that would be causing this in there, so it's just firing in the dark half the time trying to resolve these recurring issues. The worst part is, I've generally steered away from Zigbee as much as possible, due to avoiding wifi interference and because on both my Smarthings before, and my C5 since, Z-wave has been so much more reliable and solid by comparison. I would honestly have 100% Z-wave network if I could find enough affordable battery powered sensors and lightbulbs to make it work. I'm not feeling that anymore at this point. My Zigbee mesh is proving to be a lot more robust on the C8, with the very notable exception of all Sengled bulbs apparently no longer being compatible or something.

Here are some screen shots of my z-wave mesh for reference:




I find it weird that nearly all of my devices are connected direct to the hub, but 2 of the ones that are not, are literally the closest 2 to the hub. Directly above it, across the hall. They're connecting through the garage door openers that are like 5 times farther away. Bi product of the new chip with more output and antenna maybe?

Does anybody have any clue how to fix this before I dumpster the whole thing and start fresh somewhere else?

PS, I'm on firmware 2.3.6.146

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I have a much larger zwave network than you on my C8, so I know it CAN be reliable.

My only input:

  1. Get rid of any Zwave 100 & 300 devices (if present). While "compatible" they are very impactive on the performance of large networks, and should be avoided.

  2. Make sure there are ZERO ghosts or not-fully-paired devices. This can not be emphasied enough as it can really mess up the mesh.

  3. Get rid of any S0 security devices that are not locks or garage door openers. They are too impactive on traffic.

  4. Understand that SOMETIMES doing cloud backups can kill the zwave radio, requiring a full radio restart (see #5 below). Watch out for that! If you are not doing cloud backups, then that does not apply.

  5. If having universal zwave issues, shutdown the hub from the web page, then remove power from the hub to fully power down/reboot the zwave radio. The zwave radio does not fully reboot/restart on a hub reboot. It requires removing power. This is also what I recommend if #4 happens.

  6. Try rebuilding the database / soft reset if all the above looks good. Also consider doing a soft reset / db rebuild if the hub was ungracefully shutdown (power outage, etc).

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I came from a C7 where Z-wave was slightly challenging. Has been rock solid on the C-8, I have said before that this is what Z-wave is meant to be. For me it is flawless and responsive, my devices rarely miss a beat. Sounds to me like you just needed to power cycle the hub (this restarting the zwave radio).

That being said, if Zwave crashes are more frequent, there has been an issue with cloud backups as stated above, and also a few people have found a single device was causing the radio to crash.

For reference I have 50 Z-wave devices on my main hub and a dozen or so on my old C7 for driver development.

How long had it been since the last hub restart when you took those screenshots?

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Odd because I have found the C8 to be much better with Z-wave, and Zooz especially seem to work fairly well for most people. Like @jtp10181 I have well over 50 Z-wave.

Zigbee is a little less robust with the C8 in my experience, there seems to be a lot more pairing issues and quirks in general compared to previous versions of the hub. There are many posts about Zigbee issues which reflect the teething issues with this new Zigbee chipset. Support have been proactive replacing suspected bad hubs, and have put out quite a few updates to try and mitigate Zigbee issues. I have nearly 70 Zigbee devices on this hub, but I have had to put some on my other hub to fix some issues.

I would do what @JasonJoel suggests as your first steps. I would also submit a help ticket to have support look at your hub and see if there are any internal logs that may give indication as to what is going on. Warranty – Hubitat Support

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I too find your experience atypical.

While i had few ZWave difficulties on the C4, C5 & C7, I think Zwave on the C8 is markedly superior. Fewer devices hop through neighbors, and none have fallen off the mesh. I have 47 devices on my main C8, and half dozen or so on the secondary.

Now...if we were talking Zigbee...

I too recommend @JasonJoel's suggestions above, and let us know how you fare.

S

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Antennas always transmit best in the direction perpendicular to the antenna. The are very inefficient off the end of the antenna. That is why the devices located above the hub have difficulty connecting directly. For that reason, repeaters/range extenders are needed.

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Like others above, Z-Wave has been beautifully perfect on my C8, never that good on my C7. About 60 Z-Wave devices, including one Schlage lock connected w/S0 security. Almost all of my other devices are paired w/out security, but that isn't required, just my preference, others here have large Z-Wave setups but have used S2 security and are having excellent results on the C8.

Excellent suggestions above, and I suspect that w/some adjustments you will be able to enjoy a stable Z-Wave experience.

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I let it sit for about 5 days before I had taken those screenshots. Everything looks good, too me at least, but still having issues.

I forgot to mention that I have also tried full power down, unplug for 5 minute cycles as well. Not much help unfortunately.

I honestly found it to be way better as well, especially on the c8 after I upgraded. It was rock solid until the first issues, then it was rock solid again until a couple weeks ago. That's why it's so frustrating that it suddenly turned to garbage, and I hadn't changed anything recently at all.

As far as I can tell, there are no ghosts or incomplete pairings. But I'm not sure how to tell other than the screen shots above.

I don't do any web backups, so that wouldn't ve the culprit.

The antenna thing makes sense when the devices directly above don't want to connect directly. I never thought of that. But it still seems odd to me that it's really not a mesh and just a bunch of devices with direct connections.

When you say rebuild the database, do you mean wipe the z-way network and ready every device one by one?

I'll give it another full power cycle tomorrow when there's nothing actively running on it and see if that helps. It does work like 80-90% now, but the garage door openers are still slow or not responding and a lot of stuff just feels way less snappy that it was before.

The zigbee is still a bit of a dumpster fire in terms of getting devices paired, but I'm holding out hope that some sort of update will eventually fix that.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. Not a lot I haven't tried yet, but I won't throw out the baby with the bathwater for now and will keep hunting.

Don't wipe your network!

For now, to ensure your database is free of any corruption you can:

  • Download a local backup
  • Immediately do a restore and select the local backup you just downloaded.

The hub database is "cleaned" during this process, which will help if you have any issues w/database corruption.

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If you feel like you're having antenna issues, this antenna has been great for me, was recommended to my by another user who liked it. This benefitted me in particular w/a few devices (iBlinds) that had difficulty getting strong connections to my hub (having to broadcast through the metal frame of my blinds). The antenna upgrade solved all issues. It supports Z-Wave and Zigbee, but I only use it for Z-Wave. I'm in a single story ranch.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09CDJ66K2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

Antenna signal shaping below...if you are having problems w/devices directly upstairs, maybe some antenna tweaking could help? Not really my area of expertise.

image

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Regarding Zigbee:

I had months of issues w/Zigbee on the C8. In the end I'm having the most success w/none of my Zigbee devices paired directly to the C8 - they are all connected to the hub via Zigbee repeaters. You might want to explore:

  1. If devices fall off the C8, move them to your C5 and share back to C8 using Hub Mesh
  2. Add strong repeaters to your C8 so that devices will gravitate to connections via repeaters on your C8. SonOff USB Dongles, Tuya USB repeaters, various Zigbee plugs.

I ended up moving >30 Zigbee devices from my C8 to my C7, and am finally just a tiny bit shy of 100% stable on my C8 Zigbee (Z-Wave has been great from the start). Still have 90 devices on my C8, all connected via repeaters.

Multi listing, which antenna? 5dBi, 8dBi, etc.

Broadly speaking, higher dbi = wider signal shape (maybe more suitable to SS ranch), lower dbi taller shape (maybe more suitable to multi-stories).

Alternatively slap a hub on first & second floor w/higher dbi. :slight_smile:

Thanks, but what I meant to ask was which antenna did you buy, since there are 4 listed in the link you provided.

I'm in the process of moving my hub out to the family room and got this antenna, which has been preforming incredibly well for Z-wave. I chose a 5dBi to keep a fatter donut radiation pattern

https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/te-connectivity-linx/ANT-916-MHW-RPS-S/4463204

Since my hub will now be higher up but more centrally located, i was thinking of switching to a 2 or 3 dBi to allow better spread to the basement & attic

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Sorry - but I think it's your fault for assuming I can read and clearly understand English. :wink:

I got this one:

Another one that a very experienced user here likes is:
https://www.l-com.com/wireless-antenna-900-mhz-3-dbi-rubber-duck-antenna-rp-sma-plug-connector

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looks awful big.. must be hidden in closet.. cannot image what my waf would b e to have that on my shelf in family room next to the tivo

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LOL...it's out in the open in the office, but my wife never mentions it. Amazing, hiding in plain sight. It's very thin, of course. I think the best way to hide it is to mount it upside-down behind or against a bookcase or wall cabinet. My usually very particular/picky wife has had zero to say about it, so mums the word... :slight_smile:

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and Bob's your uncle

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Sorry Dana, I think this might be a little misleading. :slight_smile:

Higher dBi is indiciative of more "gain", or more accurately, directivity. This results in a narrower "beam".

So a lower dBi whip antenna is going to exhibit a beam pattern closer to isotropic (perfect sphere), than a high dBi antenna, which is going to exhibit a beam much more like a donut, with the height of the donut getting smaller and smaller as the gain/directivity goes up, and the "null" at the top and bottom bigger.

Now, where the beam is directed has to do with the shape (whip, dish, helical, discone), the directivity and the orientation. Hence, tilting the antenna on a hub, might put a device, in the beam or out of the beam...or make no difference at all.

In many cases, i would guess that going with a higher dBi antenna, might worsen your overall coverage, and increase multipath interference.

FWIW, given the wide range of signal environments in various homes, I would be more inclined to experiment with hub location before going with a higher gain antenna. But, as your experience indicates, it does sometimes work out well to simply increase the gain. As always YMMV!

S.

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