Zwave Mesh Question

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21

There is no right answer to this. It all depends upon your setup. Some people need multiple dedicated repeaters in addition to line powered repeating devices, and others get away with just a few devices total.

In general, my rule of thumb is you need about a dozen good repeating devices to build a basic mesh. More is better with Zwave. If you only have 4-5 devices, you are not going to typically get good results.

Walls are not usually a problem. Concrete can be a problem, along with metal boxes, metal walls (barn/shed?) old plaster with metal lath, or anything thick enough to block radio signals.

Maybe if you posted your whole Zwave table, someone might see something wrong?

22

Here is my entire Z-Wave table.
Problematic node is Node-52.
It is in the same metal box with Node25

Z-Wave Radio Devices

Node Stats Status Clusters Device Security Route
0x04 (004) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 12ms, LWR RSSI: 3dB
Neighbors: 32, Route Changes: 3 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x85, 0x59, 0x25, 0x26, 0x27, 0x32, 0x70, 0x81, 0x71, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x7A, out: 0x82 Kitchen Bar Light None 01 -> 1B -> 04 9.6kbps
0x16 (022) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 784ms, LWR RSSI: 0dB
Neighbors: 31, Route Changes: 84 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x85, 0x59, 0x25, 0x26, 0x27, 0x32, 0x70, 0x81, 0x71, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x7A, out: 0x82 Kitchen Ceiling Lights None 01 -> 16 100kbps
0x1A (026) PER: 2, RTT Avg: 4ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 14, Route Changes: 1 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x86, 0x72, 0x59, 0x85, 0x73, 0x71, 0x84, 0x80, 0x30, 0x31, 0x70, 0x7A, 0x5A, out: Lr MultiSensor Window Outdoor None 01 -> 1A 100kbps
0x1B (027) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 394ms, LWR RSSI: -1dB
Neighbors: 29, Route Changes: 48 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x85, 0x59, 0x25, 0x26, 0x27, 0x32, 0x70, 0x81, 0x71, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x7A, out: 0x82 Lr Dining Table Light None 01 -> 16 -> 1D -> 1B 100kbps
0x1C (028) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 43ms, LWR RSSI: 11dB
Neighbors: 29, Route Changes: 24 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x56, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x85, 0x59, 0x73, 0x26, 0x27, 0x70, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x7A, out: Closet-1 Light None 01 -> 32 -> 39 -> 1C 100kbps
0x1D (029) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 407ms, LWR RSSI: -4dB
Neighbors: 23, Route Changes: 91 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x25, 0x27, 0x81, 0x71, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x70, 0x86, 0x72, 0x73, 0x85, 0x59, 0x7A, 0x5A, out: 0x82 Bathroom Fan None 01 -> 39 -> 1D 40kbps
0x1E (030) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 40ms, LWR RSSI: 5dB
Neighbors: 24, Route Changes: 14 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x56, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x85, 0x59, 0x73, 0x26, 0x27, 0x70, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x7A, out: Closet-2 Light None 01 -> 1E 100kbps
0x1F (031) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 2ms, LWR RSSI: 28dB
Neighbors: 35, Route Changes: 4 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x56, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x85, 0x59, 0x73, 0x26, 0x27, 0x70, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x7A, out: Closet-3 Light None 01 -> 2E -> 1F 100kbps
0x21 (033) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 57ms, LWR RSSI: -6dB
Neighbors: 30, Route Changes: 41 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x55, 0x98, 0x9F, out: Corridor Door Lock S0 01 -> 21 40kbps
0x25 (037) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 15ms, LWR RSSI: 19dB
Neighbors: 7, Route Changes: 17 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x26, 0x25, 0x85, 0x8E, 0x59, 0x55, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x70, 0x5B, 0x60, 0x9F, 0x6C, 0x7A, out: Bathroom Tub Light None 01 -> 47 -> 52 -> 25 40kbps
0x26 (038) PER: 1, RTT Avg: 1330ms, LWR RSSI: 12dB
Neighbors: 29, Route Changes: 241 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x25, 0x27, 0x81, 0x71, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x70, 0x86, 0x72, 0x73, 0x85, 0x59, 0x7A, 0x5A, out: 0x82 Corridor Decorative Light None 01 -> 47 -> 26 9.6kbps
0x27 (039) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 134ms, LWR RSSI: -6dB
Neighbors: 30, Route Changes: 55 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x26, 0x27, 0x2B, 0x2C, 0x70, 0x86, 0x71, 0x60, 0x8E, 0x85, 0x59, 0x7A, 0x56, out: Corridor Dimmer/MS None 01 -> 04 -> 27 9.6kbps
0x28 (040) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 11ms, LWR RSSI: 1dB
Neighbors: 21, Route Changes: 11 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x25, 0x27, 0x32, 0x81, 0x71, 0x60, 0x8E, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x70, 0x86, 0x72, 0x73, 0x85, 0x59, 0x7A, 0x5A, out: 0x82 Bd VL Bed Lights None 01 -> 16 -> 28 100kbps
0x2C (044) PER: 1, RTT Avg: 3930ms, LWR RSSI: 12dB
Neighbors: 14, Route Changes: 225 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x26, 0x33, 0x32, 0x81, 0x60, 0x8E, 0x27, 0x70, 0x85, 0x59, 0x72, 0x86, 0x7A, 0x73, out: 0x5A, 0x82 Bd Bedlight Dimmer None 01 -> 49 -> 1D -> 2C 9.6kbps
0x2E (046) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 24, Route Changes: 0 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x25, 0x85, 0x59, 0x86, 0x72, 0x55, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x5B, 0x9F, 0x6C, 0x70, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x22, 0x7A, out: Lr Fan/Lights Switch None 01 -> 2E 100kbps
0x2F (047) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 23, Route Changes: 0 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x25, 0x85, 0x59, 0x86, 0x72, 0x55, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x5B, 0x9F, 0x6C, 0x70, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x22, 0x7A, out: Bd Fan/Lights Switch None 01 -> 2F 100kbps
0x30 (048) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 12ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 13, Route Changes: 1 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x25, 0x26, 0x33, 0x70, 0x27, 0x32, 0x81, 0x85, 0x59, 0x72, 0x86, 0x7A, 0x73, out: 0x5A, 0x82 Kitchen Coffee Maker Switch None 01 -> 16 -> 30 9.6kbps
0x32 (050) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 9ms, LWR RSSI: 9dB
Neighbors: 21, Route Changes: 17 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x85, 0x59, 0x25, 0x26, 0x27, 0x32, 0x70, 0x81, 0x71, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x7A, out: 0x82 Bd Shell Light Dimmer None 01 -> 32 100kbps
0x35 (053) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 153ms, LWR RSSI: 26dB
Neighbors: 16, Route Changes: 2 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x56, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x85, 0x59, 0x73, 0x25, 0x27, 0x70, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x7A, out: Kitchen Washer Water On/Off Switch None 01 -> 2F -> 1F -> 35 9.6kbps
0x38 (056) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 13, Route Changes: 0 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5B, 0x59, 0x85, 0x80, 0x84, 0x73, 0x70, 0x7A, 0x5A, out: 0x26 Bd MultiButton - Yelena None 01 -> 2C -> 38 9.6kbps
0x39 (057) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 19, Route Changes: 0 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x25, 0x32, 0x27, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x70, 0x85, 0x59, 0x72, 0x86, 0x7A, 0x73, 0x5A, out: Kitchen Washer Switch None 01 -> 16 -> 39 9.6kbps
0x3A (058) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 6ms, LWR RSSI: 4dB
Neighbors: 16, Route Changes: 12 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x85, 0x59, 0x55, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x80, 0x98, 0x9F, 0x71, 0x30, 0x84, 0x70, 0x6C, 0x7A, out: Bathroom Toilet MS None 01 -> 04 -> 3A 40kbps
0x40 (064) PER: 1, RTT Avg: 2ms, LWR RSSI: 0dB
Neighbors: 22, Route Changes: 8 OKRepair in: 0x31, 0x86, 0x72, 0x85, 0x84, 0x80, 0x70, 0x20, 0x71, out: Outdoor Light Sensor 1 None 01 -> 40 40kbps
0x42 (066) PER: 9, RTT Avg: 59063ms, LWR RSSI: 25dB
Neighbors: 21, Route Changes: 83 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x98, 0x9F, 0x55, 0x86, 0x73, 0x85, 0x8E, 0x59, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x80, 0x84, 0x30, 0x71, 0x31, 0x70, 0x6C, 0x7A, out: Lr MultiSensor Computer Desk S0 01 -> 42 100kbps
0x43 (067) PER: 2, RTT Avg: 4ms, LWR RSSI: 22dB
Neighbors: 12, Route Changes: 4 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x85, 0x59, 0x86, 0x72, 0x31, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x80, 0x70, 0x71, 0x84, out: Outdoor Light Sensor 2 None 01 -> 2F -> 43 40kbps
0x45 (069) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 42ms, LWR RSSI: 7dB
Neighbors: 31, Route Changes: 14 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x25, 0x70, 0x20, 0x5B, 0x85, 0x8E, 0x59, 0x55, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x87, 0x9F, 0x6C, 0x7A, out: Kitchen Scene Controller None 01 -> 04 -> 45 100kbps
0x46 (070) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 1ms, LWR RSSI: 0dB
Neighbors: 29, Route Changes: 1 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x25, 0x70, 0x20, 0x5B, 0x85, 0x8E, 0x59, 0x55, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x87, 0x9F, 0x6C, 0x7A, out: Lr Scene Controller None 01 -> 46 100kbps
0x47 (071) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 29, Route Changes: 0 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x25, 0x70, 0x20, 0x5B, 0x85, 0x8E, 0x59, 0x55, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x87, 0x9F, 0x6C, 0x7A, out: Bd Scene Controller None 01 -> 47 100kbps
0x48 (072) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 12ms, LWR RSSI: 5dB
Neighbors: 17, Route Changes: 12 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x26, 0x33, 0x60, 0x8E, 0x32, 0x81, 0x27, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x70, 0x85, 0x59, 0x72, 0x86, 0x7A, 0x73, 0x98, 0x5A, out: 0x82 Bd Salt Lamp Dimmer None 01 -> 1E -> 48 100kbps
0x49 (073) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 1ms, LWR RSSI: 17dB
Neighbors: 20, Route Changes: 3 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x56, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x85, 0x59, 0x73, 0x26, 0x27, 0x70, 0x2C, 0x2B, 0x7A, out: Lr Salt Lamp Dimmer None 01 -> 49 100kbps
0x4B (075) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 9, Route Changes: 0 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x25, 0x26, 0x33, 0x70, 0x27, 0x32, 0x81, 0x85, 0x59, 0x72, 0x86, 0x7A, 0x73, out: 0x5A, 0x82 Bathroom Toilet Switch None 01 -> 52 -> 16 -> 4B 100kbps
0x52 (082) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 491ms, LWR RSSI: -8dB
Neighbors: 18, Route Changes: 87 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x26, 0x27, 0x2B, 0x2C, 0x70, 0x86, 0x71, 0x60, 0x8E, 0x85, 0x59, 0x7A, 0x56, out: Bathroom Dimmer/MS None 01 -> 52 100kbps
0x53 (083) PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 15, Route Changes: 0 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x85, 0x59, 0x55, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x80, 0x98, 0x9F, 0x71, 0x30, 0x84, 0x70, 0x6C, 0x7A, out: Lr Dining Table MS None 01 -> 53 40kbps
0x54 (084) PER: 0, RTT Avg: 1ms, LWR RSSI: 2dB
Neighbors: 16, Route Changes: 4 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x85, 0x8E, 0x59, 0x55, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x80, 0x5B, 0x9F, 0x70, 0x84, 0x6C, 0x7A, out: Lr Balcony Scene Controller None 01 -> 54 100kbps
0x5A (090) PER: 12, RTT Avg: 325ms, LWR RSSI: 17dB
Neighbors: 23, Route Changes: 14 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x86, 0x72, 0x59, 0x80, 0x73, 0x56, 0x22, 0x31, 0x98, 0x7A, out: Lr MultiSensor Kitchen Counter S0 01 -> 5A 100kbps
0x5C (092) PER: 10, RTT Avg: 1152ms, LWR RSSI: 6dB
Neighbors: 20, Route Changes: 5 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x86, 0x72, 0x59, 0x80, 0x73, 0x56, 0x22, 0x31, 0x98, 0x7A, out: Bd MultiSensor S0 01 -> 5C 100kbps
0x5D (093) PER: 1, RTT Avg: 428ms, LWR RSSI: 1dB
Neighbors: 18, Route Changes: 61 OKRepair in: 0x5E, 0x26, 0x70, 0x85, 0x8E, 0x59, 0x71, 0x31, 0x55, 0x86, 0x72, 0x5A, 0x73, 0x9F, 0x6C, 0x7A, out: Lr Computer Desk Light None 01 -> 5D 100kbps
23

Could you do a screenshot (picture) instead of copy/paste? That format is terrible to try and figure out, and cannot be downloaded to view larger (zoom in).

And edit to say: I can't see either 52 OR 25 in that table. You sure those are what you are having trouble with? Unless you mean node 82 (0x52) and node 37 (0x25)?

24

Yes, (and I am sorry) node numbers are in hex.
I tried to insert table as a picture. But I could not capture it
as a single picture and it will be too big.

25

I use the browser zoom function (hold CTRL button, press -) to help fit things into the frame. And you can use 2-3 pictures, it doesn't have to be all one large one.

26

I can try this technique but this way pictures are not good quality.
What I did produced two lines per table entry instead of single line.

27

Hmm, works for me? 60% zoom, page 1 of about 3.

Summary

zw
zw1529×839 271 KB

28

Node 0x52 has LWR RSSI of -8 dB, which means the signal is well below the noise. Anything that routes through 0x52 will see lots of errors and retransmits. Yep, throw some repeaters at the problem. I have repeaters about every 15 feet (horizontal and vertical) in our house, which has a bunch of brick and tile and mirrors.

As @neonturbo said, it would be much easier to help you if you provided screenshots.

1 Like
29

Searching for just about any Z-Wave implementation detail is like going on treasure hunt. Here's the walkthrough for getting to the device supported feature list from Catalog of Certified Z-Wave Products for U.S. / Canada / Mexico

Put 26933 into the "Simple Search" box on the right and click "Search"; you'll get to a page with a photo of the switch inside an outlined rectangle. Below the Z-Wave Plus logo in that rectangle there is a microscopic "More" clickable link. When you click on that, you'll get another page that lists the brand name, identifier, etc. and "Z-Wave Protocol Implementation Conformance Statement". There's another clickable link next to that for "View"; that takes you to the list of capabilities and Z-Wave SDK version supported.

2 Likes
30

Thank you! This one insight helped me immensely. I have been troubleshooting some weird zwave issues and what I forgot is that when looking at a misbehaving device, that device's signal strength was only to the repeater, not to the hub. So though these devices were strong they were, in fact, going through a repeater that was basically "in the noise." Thanks for the clarifying comments. Even though they were to someone else they help me understand the root of my issue.

1 Like
31

I just installed one Aeontec 7 repeater right near my problematic Node-0x52 (2 ft away).
The repeater itself looks healthy:

image
image1536×120 18 KB

But so far (about 8 hours) nothing is routed through this repeater
(the repeater is in the meddle of ZWave-crouded area).
I guess, it will take some time for nodes to discover a repeater and switch to it.
Question-1:
How long does it take for nodes to discover and switch to the repeater?

Surprisingly Node-0x52 changed its routing and now it talks directly to the hub:

image
image1532×176 25.4 KB

This happens after few hours the repeater was installed.
Question-2:
Why my problematic node did not use the repeater?
And my last question:
Is it possible INFORCE nodes to use a specific route?
I am sure the answer is NO, but jus in case I am asking.

32

Routes are updated 1x/day automatically in recent hub firmwares. Before that, they never updated automatically - only on repair, or a broken route.

No

2 Likes
33

You could do node repair (not general repair) of nodes routing through node 0x52

1 Like
34

What would happen if one shut down the hub for 30 min (not sec) and restarted it? Would that cause a ZWave network reconvergence of sorts?

35

Kind of, but not really.

If messages try to get sent from the devices during the hub outage it will cause a nice storm of explorer frames trying to find routes to the hub though. Won't hurt anything but could take a while for routes to settle out afterwards.

No guarantee that the new routes would be better either. As the mesh is "on tilt" at that point, it could go either way.

So in theory if someone hates their routes they could power off the hub, try to use every device they reasonably can to get them to start blasting out explorer frames, then power the hub back up, and then try to use each device again.

Would definitely do SOMETHING to the routes...

2 Likes
36

I did try individual node repair many times (specifically for my problematic Node-0x52).
The result was: either nothing (exactly the same rote was reported) or Node Failed
was reported. Just did it again a min ago:

image
image1537×167 25.1 KB

However Route Change counter increments far more often than once a day.
is it any reasonable explanation for this phenomena?

37

OK,
By reading all the related responses/messages I am more and more convinced
(to my EE eyes) ZWave Protocol itself is bit seek.
And 700 ZWave series was borned with a lot of birth defects.

For more than 15+ years I was using Insteon (and X10 before insteon) more os less
successfully (Insteon hub was ISY-994IZ). When 2 years ago I moved permanently to
Florida I was looking for the NOT A CLOUD based (but also not an Insteon) HA hub.
And I am very happy, I found Hubitat.

Initially I was thinking to use only ZWave devices.
The reason is - my new apartment in Florida has gazillions WiFi routers
on 2.4GHz spectrum. Unfortunately Zigbee is using the same 2.4GHz
frequency but ZWave is on a very different 908Mhz spectrum.
To my very BIG surprise I never had any single problem with Zigbee devices.
From the other side, Zwave is an enormous headache and specifically
with introduction of 700 series ZWave chips.
So, ZWave happens to have enormous amount of birth defects
(protocol itself and silicon).

Well, from now I will switch to the Zigbee Devices.
But unfortunately not everything is available in a Zigbee version
I guess, i should say Good Bye to the ZWave toys.

38

There is no right or wrong answer to that - it is up to each person to decide what they want to use.

Zigbee has some strengths, and some weakness. As does zwave. As does wifi. As does LoRa. Etc. Etc.

And none of them work in/for 100% of installations.

Good luck!

3 Likes
39

I 1000+ % agree with you!
There is no perfect solution which will cover all cases.
Hubitat is using Zigbee and Zwave (and of course, WiFi).
My point is/was:
at least in my case it happens to be Zigbee is far more better
than ZWave (I was thinking opposite). With the C-5 my ZWave network
also was about rock solid. But I moved to the C-7 and almost immediately
started to have a lot of problems with the ZWave network.
So , yes, to my EE eyes ZWave and specifically 700 series have a lot of
birth defect. This is not only a single case in electronic industry.
Unfortunately I saw this happens many times.

40

Bathrooms are a very hostile environment to RF signals. A relatively small area is crammed with electric wires, water piping, HVAC and exhaust ducts, cement board, tile, sinks, bath tubs, and mirrors. These will either block, diffuse, or reflect RF signals.

In my master bath, I had a very difficult time using a Z-wave motion detectors to trigger my Lutron lighting dimmer. I finally gave up on the Z-wave sensors and got a couple of Hue Zigbee 3.0 motion sensors that I paired directly with Hubitat rather than through the Hue bridge. They work great.

Your bathroom Z-wave switch is trying to connect directly with the hub. However, the large number of route changes is an indication that the connection is not stable. Try to imagine a direct line of sight between the switch and the hub and figure out what might be affecting the signal. Then try to place a Z-wave repeater that will route the signal around any obstacles. In some cases, it might take more than one repeater.

1 Like