That makes sense.. thanks. I don't typically see security company equipment for sale outside of the Amazon stuff so do not have a ton of experience with those.
I've only used the powered Ring extenders. I do have a Ring contact sensor or two lying around but have not used them yet..
They are good contact sensors; possibly the best Z-wave ones.
Don't know about wired devices, but for battery devices Z-Wave 500 series have a shorter life than Zigbee. Longer life is supposed to be one of the selling points of the 700 series.
From another of their posts:
"This is one we’re wrestling with internally – and we’ve landed on the strategy of selling Z-Wave to security companies who require the security that Z-Wave offers and then if the home automation enthusiasts want Z-Wave, they can certainly have them."
Normal people don't know the phrase "I think I need to repair my mesh".
Picos aren't going away, but it's interesting to see that Lutron is moving to 2.4Ghz for their new wired devices. The radio is likely based on Thread, as they are on the group's BOD.
That is for the wired devices only. They are probably using some kind of Zigbee.
or maybe even some form of Matter.
Zigbee is moving to zombie status. There's no new development. Current Zigbee includes both the radio and the "language". Industry is moving to Thread radios (of which Lutron's likely is a flavor). The "language" that the industry is moving to is Matter. The Matter group is the new name for old Zigbee group. But they're out of the radio business other than legacy Zigbee radios. Note that the radios are similar - most Zigbee 3.0 chipsets can be flashed to Thread. There's a significant overlap of industry participation in Thread and Matter.
Thread radios can speak whatever language is thrown at them, multiple at the same time, I believe. Nanoleaf and Eve are using Thread in the HomeKit environment using some sort of HomeKit language but will move to Matter when available. Lutron is unlikely to use Matter as they are not listed on any Matter marketing material.
They will use a protocol that is not compatible and proprietary. I was just suggesting what is would be based on because of the running frequency.
Buildwithmatter.com lists Lutron as a participant...
Based on some of the marketing info from Hue, it seems like a "simple" software update to the hub may be all that is necessary for Matter compatibility. Perhaps Lutron could add Matter support in a similar fashion. All end-point devices still commucating in their native protocols, but adding Matter connectivity via the WiFi enabled hub.
But I'm certainly not an expert in such things...
Look at the front page of https://buildwithmatter.com. No Lutron listed, even as participant.
Lutron is interested in the radios. Their Clear Connect X runs on 2.4Ghz radios. That original technology predates Thread and was/is Zigbee based. But it was never using the "standard" Zigbee protocol. So it makes sense that they are not listed as a participant in Matter. And yes, they are still on the BOD of the Zigbee Alliance. But as already noted Zigbee Alliance is in a transition phase.
Even with moving to Thread-ish radios in a mesh network Lutron has unique specifications. That nobody knows the details of. Within RadioRA 3 their rule is that each device must be within 25 feet of 2 other devices and within 75 feed of the main processor. That is a fair amount different than Thread's idea of border routers.
Matter is just an IP based language. Sure Lutron could support Matter. But they're using their new-ish LEAP protocol for integrations. I don't foresee them using Matter unless they decide that it is required to remain competitive in their markets.
As there are some very bright and knowledgeable people on this thread I thought I would post a question here as I am at that point where I want to get my house set for HA, well my switches--have the other IOT stuff working for years.
A bit of background, I come from the X10, insteon world in older homes. Built my house in 2005, and planned on installing insteon dual gang switches--I dont want 6 switches taking up a huge section of the wall, so I had the electrician simply install dual gang manual switches during build. My plan was to change those out over time to insteon. Unfortunately, I delayed doing it and have a few insteon switches I've obtained over the year but am curious if I should really move that way, given it seems to be like pushing a rope up hill or move on the something newer like zigbee.
My issue is I have dual gang wiring throughout a lot of the house(house wired through EMT pipe(is code), so can't easily add wider boxes without major wall work)
I've followed Silverton38's comments on zigbee vs zwave, which I have found very insightful. I had always thought zwave would be what I would move to, as they seemed to be similar, but his reliability comments really resonate with me. I live in the world of if momma isn't happy no one is happy, so can't handle being on a business trip and the lights not work due to a zwave switch that may have had an issue.
Furthermore, I had been following some dual gang zwave switches that have come out of the last few years so always thought I would move to those to solve my dual gang wiring issue. Now reading about zwave reliability, it seems like zigbee is the better option.
I plan to connect everything with habitat, although I have an ISYS in a box if need.
My question(s):
Given this dual gang requirement are there options for handling this using zigbee?
(control two or more devices within a single gang area--this was my plan with insteon as you could control up to 6 or maybe 8 in a single gang)
Are there equivalent zigbee products or approaches?
Are zigbee hidden switches available?
Does anyone manufacturer a zigbee single gang switch that can also control other switches like insteon could?
Would combining insteon in these dual gang areas with zigbee for everything else work in hubitat?
Does Lutron caseta or RA-3 offer any options to solve this problem? I couldn't find anything substantive.
What zigbee product companies would you recommend? Silverton38 mentioned GE(old Jasco), but they seem to be only plain jane zigbee switches and nothing fancy like I am looking for.
Any other thoughts on how I could solve this anyone may have?
Thank you so much.
Todd
Take a look at behind-the-switch relays.. I haven't had much luck with the Z-Wave dual ones (Qubino, Aeotec) though but things may have changed.
Shelly WiFi looks interesting and I think there are community drivers available but do not know the details.
Also seeing stuff ZB 3 stuff like the Tuya Relay - also cannot comment as to whether this is decent or not.
Keep in mind if your gangboxes are metal that may impact the signal as well..
I understand that Inovelli has Zigbee switches in development, but nothing released yet. I would also echo @erktrek's advice to look at in-box relays. I've used the Sonoff ZBMINI (single-device) successfully, and the recommended Shelly 2.5 is a similar function except that it is WiFi LAN connected and can control two devices. Neither of these is UL listed (ie. not certified as US code compliant) and that is a deal-breaker for some people.
An alternative to dual-gang switches would be to put the "smarts" in the fixture using these in-box relays and use a "dummy" switch on the wall. The Lutron Pico remote is a very popular and inexpensive option for this, but that might not be the simplest option when using a zigbee relay as the controlled device. Although if you end up using lots of Pico's their low-cost can offset the added cost of the bridge.
I would also comment that z-wave doesn't always have problems. I've had a Zooz dimmer and Zen16 operating flawlessly for over a year and have recently added 6 more Zooz devices (two Zen17s, two more ZEN16s, a Zen32 Scene Controller, and a smart plug. No issues so far. If you do decide to try this out, I would go slow and easy, and start with a Zooz ZEN30. Its a zwave dimmer/switch combo unit that is meant for just this type of install. I think this would be my first option if I were in your shoes.
Thanks I will look into it.. Just starting my research, so thought I'd check with this group as you've had great insights in this thread.
Thank you. I will look into zooz. I have a large home and was concerned by the comments that having to make several hops over repeaters with zwave may be trouble. Assumed a large home I'd encounter that issue. Learning as I go 
Such as?
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32987793126.html?spm=a2g0s.12269583.0.0.65003f25pMW1UV
Based on these messages posted earlier here ....
keep reading that thread, that device most certainly didn't get zigbee certification that I was able to find...
Other confirmed Zigbee 3.0 certified devices that aren't working with Hubitat right now?
Not trying to be an ■■■ here, i'm very much interested...
The problem with this approach to my mind is that if your automation system fails, you've lost absolutely all control. At least with a regular zwave (or indeed zigbee) switch or dimmer you might lose automation control through the hub but the wall switch will still work as a last resort!
The point about wiring code requiring EMT is interesting - I assume that also implies metal wall boxes?
Everyone's idea of large is subjective, but for reference, my home is 1250 Sq. Ft each on the main floor and basement. Upstairs is 950. My devices just happen to be in adjacent rooms, more or less. Although I do have some in my detached shop. Zigbee devices worked with almost no planning or effort. Zwave needed some well placed repeaters.
https://community.hubitat.com/t/moving-new-house-has-detached-shop-signal-range/77497/20?u=dylan.c
Hi yes, the eboxes are metal as well. It's really overkill for residential, but is a requirement the town places on new construction. You can at least use MC whips for final 2-3' if I recall. Even MC cable was against code. So basically you have to plan right the first time. And well who knew. I also had component wires run everywhere to distribute video--right before HDMI came to market. WOulda coulda shoulda... had I known.. Thanks for everyone's inputs.
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