I've been using Zooz devices this whole time. I selected them because I've heard good things, and for usability/aesthetics we like that they resemble a conventional paddle switch.
I do wonder if there's something about the Hubitat group app in particular that's flaky. i can operate these Zooz devices from the hub directly (via the device view) and issue rapid on/off commands and the system seems stable. But when I establish a "group" consisting of just that single device, on/off commands of the group device is unreliable.
For context, before diving into Zooz/Hubitat, our primary smart lighting solution was Lutron Caseta. It had stellar performance: Instant response times, excellent dimming range. We moved to Hubitat/Zooz hoping to achieve similar performance but with a different aesthetic.
The absence of near instantaneous response times is an indication of an inefficient or poorly functional mesh. Repeating the process rapidly is going to make the situation much worse. Why you ask? Because z-wave radios are serial devices that can operate at speeds as low as 9.6 kbps. Repeated commands (and the associated noise) at that bandwidth increases the likelihood of gumming up the radio.
Fixing your z-wave mesh will eliminate this being a common use case in your household.
It is always possible that individual setups expose issues with apps. On the whole, over the last 3.5 years, I haven't experienced this particular issue.
It sounds like either the system is getting overloaded with your testing or the mesh is having communication issues (which are more noticeable with higher message rates).
Can you provide more details on how many commands you are sending over a fixed period of time? The groups app/device are event driven, and would add some (relatively small) additional processing (latency), so it would seem to reason that whatever the maximum throughput of the system is (for reliable and observable activity) using devices directly maybe lower when going through a group device (and, of course, there must be such a maximum as we don't have infinite resources anywhere in the system).
Also, can you provide a screenshot of the z-wave details page again (I don't think you have done this since you indicated that you reset the system), as well as identifying which device you used for this single device group test?
I'm starting to reach the conclusion that my Z-Wave mesh is not fixable, for whatever reason. I've rebuilt my mesh from scratch a couple of times now, with different mix of devices in different locations, and can't achieve the performance or stability I require from the system.
Maybe there's some RF interference in my environment that I don't know about. I wouldn't know how to diagnose such a thing. Or maybe Zooz devices aren't as good as I'd hoped, and are too susceptible to being overloaded or too slow to process Z-Wave commands or raise status events that are required for reliable Hubitat group operation. Or maybe my Hubitat (/Z-Wave radio) is just a lemon.
I don't know how to test any of those theories without throwing more time and money at it, and I've already sunk countless hours and $500. Might be time to cut losses here.
I've had much better success with Lutron Caseta and Hue lighting controls in my environment, which I believe operate on different RF spectrums. I'd go back to Caseta in a heatbeat if my wife didn't hate the control layouts so much. Or I'd go RA2, if it wasn't so damned expensive.
Difficult to say. If you wish to troubleshoot your z-wave mesh, I would second @tony.fleisher's suggestion to share a screenshot of your current z-wave details page.
One other suggestion. Try metering with ~100-200 ms in your z-wave groups.
Edit - one more suggestion. If you are handy with a solder iron, consider adding an external z-wave antenna.
Hah! My gut says that there's a good chance something like this would help in my case, but alas, no, I'm not handy with a solder iron, and that's a level of DIY beyond what I was prepared to bite off in the Hubitat system.
(I'm a software guy and am not intimidated by rolling up my sleeves a bit on the programming side of things; But didn't expect to be so stymied by the hardware / RF protocol side of things.)
I would agree. My z-wave mesh (~60 devices) was reasonably performant even without the antenna; I had no complaints at any rate. However, I have noticed that it is extremely performant with the antenna. Yet, ~50% of my devices are z-wave (not z-wave+), and I even have one 100-series z-wave outlet.
There are some community members who have kindly added antennas for others, like me, who are not handy with a soldering iron.
Thanks, I'll gather my Z-Wave details just for one more crack at making this work, but if I can't, I'll be looking to sell these Zooz devices and start over with something else. Innovelli Blue (ZigBee 3.0) might be worth a try.
I'm a zwave fan and have a good working stable mesh. But everyone's use case is different. We don't use motion Lighting or any "one button for many lights" type control though. Our smart light control is all via voice (Alexa) so we wouldn't notice lag others might.
Some people have good luck with ZigBee. Others are good with zwave. Some (like us) use both with what we consider success. Everyone has a different environment. We have both zooz and inovelli zwave switches and they're perfect for our needs.
That being said you can't go wrong with Lutron. You get what you pay for with RA2 Select (and now RA3). Yes it's relatively expensive but what's your WAF worth? We can't stand the physical UI on Caseta but we know some people love them (and if you're a motion lighting home it's less of a concern.)
This group is here to help support your integration to HE with whatever you might choose. It's not always easy and that's why some families choose a complete turn key integration like Control4 or Crestron. But if you're doing it yourself taking parts and pieces from different vendors, there will always be a pain curve. We're here to help minimize it!
Yup, I totally get this. Very different expectations/tolerance for responsiveness of voice triggers vs physical buttons.
I'd probably be fine with our Z-Wave performance if I was only doing voice control, but alas, we've got this fancy scene controller device that we were hoping to use for group lighting controls, and it just isn't working out.
Z-Wave mesh details. This was after (yet another) Z-Wave repair a bit ago, so I don't know how much data has been collected, but certainly plenty of red in that table.
Can I ask how long your hub had been running before you took this screenshot? There are a lot of route changes, which is also an indication of a mesh that bears strengthening.
By way of comparison, my hub has been up for 3 days. One of devices has 9 route changes. Two have 3. The rest have 1 or 0.
I can't remember what causes these numbers to reset -- Z-Wave repairs? Hub reboots? I've done both today, as I was presented with an alert in Hubitat UI about excessive database growth which suggested a reboot.
So, I assume those stats are just me playing with it over the last couple hours.
I was never able to successfully get WiFi up and running so that I could try relocating the hub somewhere else. Guess I can work on that again.
I had 11 total but a while ago I took 3 out because they seemed like they were the most finicky. I took a long break troubleshooting until I could get those replaced. The replacements didn't behave any better. So either Zooz devices are no good, or they keep sending me lemons, or there's something wrong with my hub / RF environment.
Two adjacent rooms. The hub is no more than 25' from the furthest device (with a single wall in between). Lutron and Hue hubs work great in the same location, controlling some devices that are at least twice as far.
My understanding is that every single one of these devices is a repeating device? They are all new Zooz Zen7x z-wave plus devices on brand new electrical circuits.
@neonturbo's assessment is very accurate. In general, it is useful to bear in mind that the theoretical distances of z-wave and zigbee transmission do not translate well to individual homes. Walls, construction materials, and appliances can interfere with radio function.
While there are many people here who have performant networks that are entirely z-wave+, my experience is that even a properly constructed mixed mesh, like mine, can be very performant.
I guess I'm not sure what the recommendation is, exactly? Are my current Z-Wave + devices not repeaters? Is there some dedicated repeater device I should be considering?
FWIW I got Hubitat wifi working and relocated it to the mantle. That won't fly as a permanent spot -- doesn't fit with the wife's design aesthetic -- but it's the most central place in my house with pretty direct unobstructed line of sight to all but 2 of these devices.
Early testing at that new location is promising. So far it's resisting my best to overload the system / simulating button-mashing kids.
The previous location was in a converted garage space; the wall diving that room from the main rooms (where most of the Z-Wave devices are) have plenty of old galvanized pipes, there's a washer/dryer and hot water heater in between, etc. I have no idea whether/why other RF technologies (Lutron ClearConnect, Zigbee, Wifi) are more tolerant of that kind of interference, but maybe so?
They are repeaters. But even repeaters are subject to the laws of physics. The antennas of those switches are usually up front, so they won't be impacted significantly by the material of the wall-box the walls themselves. But to varying extents, they are.
Are your zigbee devices in-wall or outside? And Lutron ClearConnect uses a much lower frequency (~430 MHz). This cuts through drywall, brick, and wood like a knife through butter!
In my network of 59 z-wave devices, I have 5 plug-in repeaters. They tend to do the heavy lifting for whatever reason. I think it is because their antennas exposed much more.
Also wanted to add. 90% of my lighting is all Lutron. And I have a separate mesh of about 90 zigbee devices. Getting my z-wave mesh to be performant took the most time! So hang in there!
-- but it's the most central place in my house with pretty direct unobstructed line of sight to all but 2 of these devices.
