Z Wave Inclusion - Security Popup - Quirk

I've started this as another thread here but it links (in some part) to my previous "Z Wave Routing Defies All Reason" post/rant/whinge.

To summarise, the security popup would not appear enabling inclusion as anything other than S0 and the general consensus was that if the maximum security level that a device supported was S0 then it would be included at that level without the popup. I conceded defeat with the Fibaro Dimmer 2 devices displaying that behaviour and moved on (put my dummy back in my mouth/my toys back in the pram so to speak)

I'm currently setting up the Fibaro Wall Plug and having similar issues though not quite the same. One of two things happens:

1 - the security box does not appear, the device is found and after naming it, it is added as S0 without a choice (as it was for the Fibaro Dimmer 2).

2 - the security box appears, I deselect everything for "none", but then it times out leaving me with an unknown device in the Z Wave details page.

Now this device can definitely use up to S2 Authenticated (and I believe that's true for the Dimmer 2) so it shouldn't add as S0 as it does in point 1 above. However there's a quirk if it sets up as point 2 above. I've found if I just go to the "unknown" unusable device in the Z Wave Details and hit discover - the device correctly identifies itself as type "Fibaro Wall Plug" and has been added as S0.

Now I know this I can avoid continual exclusion/inclusion to get it working how I want.

As you suggest, there's been plenty of discussion around how much we all miss the days when we had the choice of how to Join devices. It's also been explained that:

  • the limitation comes from SiLabs SDK and not directly from Hubitat.
  • that Hubitat is hoping that changes to the SDK (long range) will open a FUTURE possibility of enhancing the SDK to offer an un-secure Join.

There are workarounds, none of them pleasant, like clicking a button. You can add a secondary controller and use that to join devices as un-secure. This is effectively using the series 500 SDK to join, which is exactly the back-port we're hoping for :smiley:

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OK. I understand now that this out of Hubitats control.

It seems that I might have been better purchasing a second hand older Hubitat C5 model, and had I done so would not be having these difficulties with the devices? Unfortunately I already have at least 5 devices that won't join at anything other than S0 (or have a mind of their own). Had someone not mentioned on the forum that S0 would cause me problems, I'd have never known any different but now I do, I don't want to proceed further knowing that I might have issues further down the line.

Secondary controller - I see this could be a workaround. However I bought the C7 as an upgrade to my V2 SmartThings Hub. To have to add an additional older hub into the mix to get things to work seems counter intuitive. Does that secondary controller have to remain once the devices are included or can it be removed again? Also does the secondary controller have to be a specific model?

Is there any indication that the SDK will ever change? It seems as though any user with older devices would be crazy to upgrade as currently the SDK is taking away backward compatibility with older devices unless the user accepts S0.

No you don't need to keep a secondary controller connected. In fact if you leave it powered then devices might try and route through it.

A secondary controller is a very nice thing to have as it gives you a bit more control over your system. You can exclude ghost devices, update firmware, pair devices with no security + other stuff.

UZB-7 is popular because it is inexpensive and 700 series but there are others like Z-Stick+ which has an internal battery and can be carried around to do exclusions etc.

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What's the process (just asked you in the other thread). Is there a specific device/Z wave tool or could any other controller be used?

We are double threading!!! :rofl:

You essentially put the secondary contoller into include mode using the PC Controller software and include the device. It will automatically get added to the main controller table.


So would this work with any old controller or do I need a Z stick. IE could I fire up my old SmartThings hub and use that or is there some specific software thats needed?

For this purpose, would a 500-series controller not be better?

I wondered that as I believe it's the 700 series chip in the C 7 that's causing the issue I'm trying to resolve...

FWIW, I have a uzb-3.

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S2 security doesn't transfer from the secondary to the main controller as far as I know so it doesn't matter. I have both sticks and have successfully paired "no security" devices using each.

I am going to take that back - I will test this today with my Aeotec sensor and report back just to make sure I'm not completely insane. As you and @johnwill1 point out 700 series comes with baggage... hmmm.

I don't think the rules are the same for a secondary controller though...

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In theory the hardware would work, but no one, to the best of my knowledge, has come up with a way to force the ST hub into a secondary controller role. Even if you cleared that hurdle you’d have to find a means to control it independent of the ST cloud. Whole lot simpler to pick up a $55 Z stick and downloading the PC Controller software.


Would the Aeotec Z-Stick Gen5 work? I use a Mac not Windows. The stick says it works with Mac but if the software needed is Windows only I can use that via Parallels VM

Yes. I have a mac as well. PC controller works in virtual box.

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So to report back @aaiyar & @johnwill1

I excluded my Aeotec Recessed Door Sensor Gen5 the usual way via HE then paired my UZB-7 with no security and did an NWI (Network Wide Inclusion) via the PC Controller SW and put the sensor into pairing mode. It added as a Generic Z-Wave Contact Sensor with no security as expected!!!

Also no more ghost route!!!


That is good to know because the uzb7 is much cheaper than the uzb3!


and if you replace the firmware you can use the UZB-3 for Zniffing!!! Although not sure how well that works with S2 traffic...

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OK thanks everyone - so just to confirm;

1 - The Aeotec Z Stick Gen 5 will do the job (as I can't locate the UZB 7 on eBay or Amazon (UK) and I want it pronto!)

2 - To do what I'm trying to do - I'll exclude the offending S0 device as usual, add the Z stick as a device?, use the controller software to add the offending device back in to HE without security, then exclude the Z stick when complete.

Does that sound somewhere near. If the Aeotec stick will work I'll order one now. Thanks again.

Sounds like the correct steps..

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Hmm I might still struggle here. I've just read the instructions that @erktrek linked to and it states that Windows 10 is required. Although I have Parallels on my Mac I only have Win 7 Pro. I don't mind buying the Aeotec stick but I'll not purchase a copy of Win 10 for just 1 piece of software. Home Automation - where every solution leads to another problem :joy: