Why are random items in a rule skipped over?

home5 · April 21, 2023, 6:33pm

Sorry if this is a common thread, but my keyword searches were underwhelming.

I have many rules, some are older 4 series, others are newer version 5. Many are triggered by a mode change, and go down a list of 4~6 switches to turn on or off.

Almost daily, one of the changes in the list does not happen. It's not the same one either: one day it might be a zigbee bulb, another day a z-wave switch.

After one of these random "misses", I can't find any evidence in the logs that the attempt was even made. The missed control still shows the device in the unchanged state; IOW it doesn't even "think" that it turned it off or on. It just ignored one random item by apparent choice.

Quite the rebellious behavior. Besides updating/migrating the rule, or removing/recreating the rule, or rebooting the hub (all things I have tried), are there any other suggestions?

aaiyar · April 21, 2023, 6:36pm

What you describe is caused by mesh insufficiencies. It can only be resolved by a detailed evaluation of your zigbee and z-wave meshes, followed by fixing issues such as ghosts, and reinforcing weak spots using repeaters.

csteele · April 21, 2023, 6:50pm

One of the Clues you mention is that there's no hint in the log that it was attempted and it may be helpful to understand that logs may only show events that completed. In other words, the Z-radio sends out the command and gets nothing in response... so it resends and gets nothing. It repeats 3 times usually. But if the hub doesn't get the response, then it assumes it failed and doesn't log it.

There's caveats to what I just wrote in very simplistic form... some drivers will perhaps add debug log the fact that the command is being sent to the Z-device. In some cases then you might see a log of "on()" and then a log line for "office switch turned on".

The absence of log entries lead @aaiyar (and I) to assume a mesh issue.

aaiyar · April 21, 2023, 6:51pm

@home5

To add to what @csteele said, you should consider turning logging on for your automations (events, triggers, actions). Then at least you'll know what the hub attempted during the course of the automation.

home5 · April 21, 2023, 6:52pm

Thanks @aaiyar and @csteele for the fast response with all those words. Hopefully I can use some of them to learn more about actual steps to take.

aaiyar · April 21, 2023, 6:53pm

It would help if you described your z-wave mesh and zigbee mesh, along with their physical layout.

If you have a C-7 or C-8 hub, can you post a screenshot of the entire z-wave settings page?

pseudonym · April 21, 2023, 6:54pm

Would it be worthwhile to hit Configure for the devices in questions and see if that helps?

home5 · April 21, 2023, 7:17pm

Here's the device list in CSV format.

"SPECIFIC_TYPE_THERMOSTAT_GENERAL_V2
Remotec ",,Front Air Controller ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 0B -> 07 40kbps
0x08 (008),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 17, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_THERMOSTAT_GENERAL_V2
Remotec ",,Kitchen Air Controller ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 08 40kbps
0x09 (009),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 14, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
Jasco Products",,Front Yard Outlet ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 09 40kbps
0x0A (010),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 12, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_THERMOSTAT_GENERAL_V2
Remotec ",,Bedroom Air Controller ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 0B -> 0A 40kbps
0x0B (011),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 16, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_MULTILEVEL
Jasco Products",,Kitchen Light ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 09 -> 0B 40kbps
0x10 (016),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 15, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_ROUTING_SENSOR_MULTILEVEL
AEON Labs",,Garage Motion ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 0B -> 2B -> 10 9.6kbps
0x11 (017),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 9, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_SECURE_KEYPAD_DOOR_LOCK
Allegion",,Front Door ,,,,S0,,,,01 -> 11 40kbps
0x13 (019),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 11, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_ROUTING_SENSOR_BINARY
Nortek Security & Control LLC ",,Door Kitchen ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 0B -> 13 40kbps
0x14 (020),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 1, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_NOTIFICATION_SENSOR
Shenzhen Neo Electronics Co., Ltd",,Fan Window ,,,,None,,,,
0x15 (021),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 3, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_ROUTING_SENSOR_BINARY
Nortek Security & Control LLC ",,Door Bedroom ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 0B -> 15 40kbps
0x17 (023),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 5, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_ROUTING_SENSOR_BINARY
Nortek Security & Control LLC ",,Door Laundry ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 0B -> 21 -> 2B -> 17 40kbps
0x18 (024),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 5, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_ROUTING_SENSOR_BINARY
Nortek Security & Control LLC ",,Door Refrigerator ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 09 -> 0B -> 18 40kbps
0x19 (025),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 3, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_NOTIFICATION_SENSOR
Zooz",,Kitchen Motion ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 19 100kbps
0x1A (026),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 9, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_NOTIFICATION_SENSOR
Zooz",,Driveway Motion ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 1A 100kbps
0x1B (027),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 6, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_NOTIFICATION_SENSOR
Zooz",,Garden Motion ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 1B 100kbps
0x1C (028),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 11, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_MULTILEVEL
Jasco Products",,Lights Outside Studio ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 0B -> 21 -> 10 -> 1C 9.6kbps
0x1F (031),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 3, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_SECURE_KEYPAD_DOOR_LOCK
Allegion",,Studio Door ,,,,S2 Access Control,,,,01 -> 0B -> 2B -> 1C -> 1F 40kbps
0x21 (033),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 11, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
NIE Technology Co., Ltd",,Deck Lights ,,,,S2 Unauthenticated,,,,01 -> 21 40kbps
0x2B (043),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 16, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_REPEATER_SLAVE_[SIC]
Aeotec Limited",,Repeater ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 0B -> 2D -> 2B 100kbps
0x2C (044),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 13, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_SECURE_KEYPAD_DOOR_LOCK
Allegion",,Gate ,,,,S2 Access Control,,,,01 -> 0B -> 2B -> 2C 40kbps
0x2D (045),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 16, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_POWER_SWITCH_BINARY
NIE Technology Co., Ltd",,Front Porch Light ,,,,None,,,,01 -> 0B -> 2D 40kbps
0x30 (048),,"PER: 0, RTT Avg: ms, LWR RSSI:
Neighbors: 13, Route Changes: 0 ",,,,OK ,,,,
"SPECIFIC_TYPE_SECURE_KEYPAD_DOOR_LOCK
Allegion",,Laundry Room Door ,,,,S2 Access Control,,,,01 -> 0B -> 2B -> 30 40kb

aaiyar · April 21, 2023, 7:31pm

Very hard to read that. A screen shot would be easier.

home5 · April 21, 2023, 7:47pm

Sorry, I didn't expect you to read it like that; rather paste it to a csv file and open that as a spreadsheet.
Here's a screen image.

aaiyar · April 21, 2023, 7:48pm

0x06 is a ghost and must be removed.

home5 · April 21, 2023, 7:51pm

[Discover],[Refresh] and [Repair] all fail to provide a [Remove] option. Will keep trying...

home5 · April 21, 2023, 7:56pm

Six attempts later, and the ghost is finally vanquished.
Any follow up action suggested?

dadarkgtprince · April 21, 2023, 10:12pm

in your rule, are you turning off all 6 devices in the rule? might be helpful to create a group containing those 6 devices (that turns on if any are on), then turn off the group in your rule

home5 · April 21, 2023, 10:55pm

One of the rule's actions is "Switch Off", under which I can check the boxes for each of the devices I want turned off. Not sure if that answers your question.

aaiyar · April 21, 2023, 10:58pm

Can you post a screenshot of your rule?

dadarkgtprince · April 21, 2023, 11:25pm

it does. you're turning off all 6 one at a time

dylan.c · April 21, 2023, 11:51pm

Mesh issues aside, isn't this why the "meter" option was added a while back? So that you could spread out commands and not blast them out all at once?

I've never understood some aspects of the zwave details. For example, many of the devices listed show "01 -> 0B ->" as the first/last hop on the route, but device 0B shows a route of "01->09->0B."

So does 0B connect directly to the hub or not?

home5 · April 22, 2023, 12:27am

There's more than 1 rule which exhibits the issue. Here's one:

And here's another:

aaiyar · April 22, 2023, 12:36am

I suggest doing what ~~@dylan.c~~ (sorry, @dadarkgtprince) suggested:

Using the groups and scenes app create a group that contains the switches you want to control.
When you create the group, enable metering with a delay of 200 ms.
Try controlling the group device from its device page - if it works reliably with metering of 200 ms, then try reducing it to 150 ms or 175 ms. Use the lowest metering value that is reproducibly reliable with the group device.
Use the group device in your Rule.