Third Party Developers like Rboy

I'm not a lawyer either, but I understood "customer software" to mean the apps and drivers that community members create. Since generic statements like

are generally impossible to attribute or verify/refute, my opinion is that any further discussion is moot without referencing the specific clause(s) of the platform terms of service that seem to be relevant.

I would welcome any comment from Hubitat staff, or someone more knowledgeable about contract law than me (which is setting the bar pretty low :laughing:) to help clarify further.

Even should Hubitat staff clarify that (in their opinion) you cannot sell apps.. Putting something into a contract doesn’t automatically make it enforceable. This is especially true since their driver/app model is based on SmartThings and all of that code was released under the Apache 2.0 license.

2 Likes

Certainly, specific contract provisions can be held unenforceable by a court (or arbitrator, since another paragraph of the Hubitat TOS states that we all agree to binding arbitration and give up rights to a jury trial in the event of any dispute).

Does the apache 2.0 license address whether developers that create derivative works can charge customers for access to their code? I'm not a developer either, so I'm just here to learn more :slight_smile:.

It sure does...

1 Like

that's a cool website, if only it translated the hubitat TOS from legalese to plain english :rofl:.

We haven't heard from Rboy about him having any interest in this, and his existing license to his apps would disallow this.

Indeed, you are not a lawyer and you are completely wrong in suggesting that the TOS is not enforceable. We do not allow the publication of apps and drivers for sale by third parties under the standard TOS. Anyone who wants to engage in selling apps and drivers would have to obtain an agreement with us to do so. This is possible, but someone like Rboy would have to talk to us about it and work out the terms.

I have talked to Rboy and he has told me he has no interest in supporting Hubitat in the future. That's a shame but it is what it is. Same goes for ActionTiles.

To be clear, I did not say the entire TOS was unenforceable, only this specific provision... And that was just my opinion which I clearly stated.

I am dropping out of this discussion at your request.

1 Like

The app/driver "store" discussion comes up now and again.... it always dies... some users are willing to pay so I don't think that's the problem anymore... dunno...

Maddie over at rboy says that Hubitat policy doesn’t allow them to create apps. I guess we are stuck between a Hubitat and developers pointing fingers at each other.

This is quite sad. I am curious though why would you discourage folks from selling apps, it’s not like Hubitat itself is free. I’m sure many users would gladly jump ship if his apps and awesome support are available on Hubitat.

2 Likes

Maybe I am wrong but that sounds like that people can't just go and make their own paid apps UNLESS they have some type of agreement (monetary, legal, or otherwise) with Hubitat.

I guess what I don't get is what does Rboy offer that isn't available through other methods? I looked through his listing of apps, and there isn't really anything that I haven't seen on here for free, via Rule Machine, or other native apps... :eyes:

1 Like

That’s is what it seems like. Hubitat builds their product off SmartThings and sells it but others can’t sell apps for Hubitat :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

I used to use free apps on SmartThings but I found that devs moved on after a while which left me the lurch more than once.
I just love the quality of rboy apps and support the rboy team provides. I feel like I’ve gotten a lot more out of the lifetime subscription than what I’ve paid for (and my spouse is :smiley:)

At the end of the day you get what you pay for and everyone has to earn their paycheck. I do hope that Hubitat and rboy can figure something out.

That seems 100% up to the rboy folks... if they haven't approached Hubitat formally on the topic, which I've seen Hubitat say multiple times, that seems like it would be step 1.

1 Like

OP here. When I created this post on February 2018, I had been in contact with Rboy and this what he had said:

1 Like

Seem to contradict each other. But then again, the "CEO" (would have been better if they stated who they reached out to) at that time isn't the same "CEO" that is at Hubitat now. Maybe they need to reach out again?

Or better yet, reach out to a human - not a title - and engage with Bruce directly. Ball still seems clearly in RBoy's court.

But whatever. Any RBoy app subscribing HE user with development skills theoretically would have ported the RBoy apps they wanted to use over to HE for personal use a long time ago anyway. I realize that doesn't help the masses, though, and more options on HE is a good thing.

I've looked at RBoy's code in great detail in the past. While there are definitely some clever things in there, and it is a nice/polished offering, there isn't anything they do in there that can't be done outside of their paid apps. Out if the apps I looked at (I didn't look at them all) I don't see the huge need/desire to have then on HE. But, again, more choice is good in general I guess.

2 Likes

Agree I am just trying to provide details I know as the OP, almost 2 years later :grin:. In February 2018 locks didn’t work well on HE and no lock code management app existed. HE has come a long way since then and I really don’t have a need for the Rboy apps any longer for my simple cases.

FWIW This unfortunately violates Rboy’s license.

2 Likes

Yup, it sure does. But as with all licensing agreements the license holder would have to demonstrate that there are actual damages before they could pursue legal action.

Good luck with that if an individual that paid for the apps is using them for personal use and not sharing or distributing the code to anyone else.

For the record, I am currently running no RBoy apps on my hubs - so I'm not worried about it personally.

But for those that want/need the RBoy apps on HE, let's hope RBoy reaches out to Bruce and that they can work out an arrangement.

If not, then there isn't much to discuss/argue about really.

3 Likes

I've have been speaking with rboy he says he is more than willing to bring his code over to hubitat. Could someone please reach out to him?

1 Like

He's free to bring them over, and could have done so at any point since we launched Hubitat. But, he's not free to charge for them per the TOS. Since he's "more than willing", then surely it's time for him to offer his apps for free like everyone else does, e.g. Package Manager, Hub Connect, about 100 drivers, etc., etc.

LoL just wow. Ive never known anyone who had a business willing to offer their product for free. I had not realized that hubitat would not be willing to come to an understanding with him. I would have saved some time.

I won't bring it up again.