The complete answer for hub replacement == Hub Protect?

Replying to the announcement Introducing Hub Protect:

First of all, I'd like to state that I have no problem with you these subscription services. It helps me as a user by knowing that you'll be around to keep supporting these hubs. The point of my question is to assess that I understand the situation correctly.

The announcement makes it pretty clear what Hub Protect offers. This is a significant value that other hubs do not have (can't think of any offhand) that probably took a whiile to develop and test, so using subscription to help repay development costs makes total sense to me :+1:

To clarify the siituation for those unwilling or unable to pay, they can make backups of their hub config Backup and Restore - Hubitat Documentation, but

  • this won't include Zigbee and Z-Wave device pairing which must be redone

  • config reloads on different hardware is not supported

Have I captures the situation exactly? Anything I overlooked?

Again-- this post is for clarity on the alternatives, and I am not in any way complaining and I very much hope that no replies to this post are used to complain. You can complain in another thread, I hope this thread can focus on information provided :+1:

What do you mean by

I don’t believe this is correct. I manually migrated from my C-5 to my C-7 about six months ago by loading a C-5 database backup to the C-7 and using this procedure:

In a slight modification, I first bought a bunch of Ring Alarm Extender Gen 2 repeaters and built a new mesh for the C-7. That way, the C-5 stayed up, running things as I migrated.

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I agree with @672southmain. I recently used the cloud backup/migrate option to move everything from one of my C5 hubs to another C5. My Z-Wave devices just worked. I had to re-include my Zigbee devices, and Hubitat detected them as already existing. Pretty much everything else worked exactly as before.

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While the normal backup won’t automatically connect existing devices, when you pair a zigbee device, it’ll detect it as having previously been joined and will slot into the same device as before (so no redoing rules). Basically zigbee behaves the same on restore whether hub protect or plain old Backup.

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Well this is kind of annoying if you STILL need to go to every Zigbee device. I have over 60 Zigbee devices, some in not easy access areas. The point of paying for the backup/restore is to not have to deal with repairing/re-including all the devices, that includes Zigbee.

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Technical limitations are always a constraint on what capability any service can provide...

You can see the response and explanation from Bruce here for the details:

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I was able to back up a C-4 and restore it on a C-7 without issues. Not sure what the problem is.

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Agreed. Maybe the C-8 (or whatever version.next is) will have that ability. Apparently just isn't technically possible with the current hardware.

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Well, this is true for z-wave, but as I understand what I have read, zigbee devices must still be paired manually even with the service. With zigbee, when the devices are paired, they are re-linked to the original device, whereas with z-wave, the pairing process creates a new device, and the user must manually migrate the device without the service.

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Thank you everyone for the replies correcting my misunderstanding. Unfortunately I don't feel any more clear on the diifference. So for clarity:

and

This would mean that backup/restore works better than I had thought. If so, does that mean that Hub Protect offer is hardware warranty extension and offsite backup only?

So what it means is that we don’t have all the information. One can restore a C-4 backup to a C-7, using the built in tools, but zigbee and z-wave devices will have to be paired again. Wifi based integrations will be fine. Another thing is if you restore a C-3 or C-4 hub to a C-7, and you move the z-wave/zigbee stick, the. You don’t need to re-pair, because the stick was moved with all the pairing information.

I don't believe the stick works with a >= C7, it has to be a internal radio.

Ok there are a few confusions here so I'm going to try and clarify.

Before the new service you could back up your database no matter what hub version and you could restore that to any hub version.
When you did this you would rejoin the ZigBee devices and they would slot back in their old holes.
For most z-wave devices you could join them as normal but would then need to carefully follow a guide to swap the network ID around so that you didn't need to change all your rules. Some more complex devices this wouldn't be possible on and you would have to do from scratch then edit the rules.

None of this has been removed and so will work now and in the future.

The new service.
This will work for most >=C5 (some C5s with the stick will still have to do the above).

This enables a cloud back up of your hub which includes the above but also the z-wave details. This means if you want to restore to the same hub version or migrate to a later version. Everything will be moved over, with no manual joining of z-wave devices. You will still need to rejoin ZigBee currently on the <=C7 just as you would do now without the service.

Additionally to the above you also extend your warranty of your hub while the subscription is in place.

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The bottom line is the manual backup you do does not back up the radios, it backs up the database (rule, apps, etc). When you restore, you have to re-pair your z-wave and zigbee devices (the zigbee devices will automatically be recognized on pairing, the z-wave will not)

The hub protect restore service automatically does a backup of your data to the cloud for protection (this does not interfere with you backing up locally) but the hub protect version backs up your main database as well as the radio database so when you go to restore to either your existing hubitat (because you had to do a hard reset for something) or a new hubitat, you will not have to re-pair your z-wave devices. You will have to re-pair your zigbee devices but they will be recognized on pairing. The reason you can't restore the zigbee radio like you can the z-wave is a technology limitation. The rest of the subscription is like an extended warranty but Hubitat won't be calling you at 2:am to see if you want to renew...

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Strange in Hub Protect pack description, is written that the configuration of new hub with the devices is available only for Z-wave, not for ZigBee. That I understand the ZigBee must be paired even if you buy this pack. So my network is exclusively on ZigBee, then I can consider this pack is not useful for me, just as an insurance for a new hub in case of a defect? Using the money for 3 years of insurance, I can buy my own backup hub :slight_smile:
So I'll be more happy about these news if the fast config will work also for ZigBee, if the technology admit, otherwise that could be solved if the backup hub can be configurated as a full clone of the old one (including communications protocols and id).

Unfortunately they've mentioned there's a technical limitation that prevents them from offering what you're asking for:

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So, am I the ONLY one that did not understand the back-ups that I have been religiously generating and storing locally on my NAS would NOT allow me to upload to a replacement hub and have my network fully restored? I am feeling equally stupid and betrayed, especially given the fact I have an unopened back-up C5 sitting on the shelf in the event of total primary hub failure. I, not the HE folks, am the one who devoted hours of time (and sometimes much frustration) into creating the mesh and thus generating the "Z-WAVE radio data" that apparently does not get included in the "back up file"! But this very same data can seemingly be extracted from my hub and saved to a cloud back-up and then sold back to me? For me, having local control of my back-ups (if they were truly a fully functional restorative back-up) is just as important as having local control of my devices. Frustration level nearing 4.9 and HE respect flagging.

For someone who's been around since October 2019, yes, for you to have just discovered that Hubitat local backups have NEVER included radio data is amazing. The C-3 & C-4 use external radios and they can be physically moved to a C-5, using an OTG cable. But the C-7 was a break due to the new 700 series ZWave chip/radio. Those external sticks don't work with the C-7's version of the Platform.

When Hub Protect was announced but before it was delivered, we had an influx of people from platforms that DID include the radios in the backup. That wasn't ST and wasn't Wink, but there are hubs that have provided that data during backup. There was a full discussion of this at that time. Hubitat's use of the Nortek husbzb-1 is a big factor in this. Nortek locked down the DB so it couldn't be extracted and Hubitat was locked into not being able to backup the radio db. In other words, Hubitat's inertia on this carried into the C-5, which could have offered backup of the radio db, but didn't. There was no adjustment til the C-7's introduction.

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But still on a c7 your personal backup/download dosnt have z-wave details?

Correct. Local backups have never included radio databases.

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