[Rant] Getting tired of Hubitat's issues

I think that knowing the background of where Hubitat became an idea and then reality (same for many apps we use like Rule Machine). It all started with a bunch of tinkerers that love what they do and love to tinker around but were fed up with existing systems that were just not working as advertised, so they decided to make a better machine that just works. This is what made it's reputation of a solid local system that did not necessarily needed internet to work (unless you chose to use cloud connected devices).

Now that the reputation of Hubitat is made as a solid machine and that the main stream users are starting to take notice, they need to shift a big part of there focus on making the experience for the common person more enjoyable and easier than what the tinkerer will tolerate (or even enjoy like those HA fan guys) before the competition takes the lead.

Seeing that they are now starting to actually change this focus over to the user experience with some changes that have already been done (adding rooms, collapsible lists in apps and more, device page with user selectable columns, etc.) and other changes that are in Beta. I believe they are moving in the right direction, but will this be fast enough for the growing market and new hubs coming out that are clearly more appealing to the common user, we will have to wait and see.

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Not sure what you mean by "tongue in cheek" , if I'm just missing the joke, but webcore, at least when I used it about 4 years ago or so, was not the sort of branching I mean.

By branching, I mean like... (As a prior example) you open a tax app. You don't (necessarily) know beforehand which forms you need. You start with a wizard. Maybe you follow it all the way through. Maybe you click a button/link to go to a form view. Maybe on a sub form, you click a help button, and that prompts an abbreviated wizard. In other words, ideally, UIs should adapt to the momentary needs of each user, not the other way around. Of course, putting that in practice is way harder to do than to say, and makes it all way more complex to design.

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Yes, my rants, criticism, whatever, aren't about what Hubitat has accomplished, it's that now that they have built the basic system... where are they going?

I probably haven't expressed it well, but I genuinely am wanting to know - are they focusing on [built-in app] useability and I just need to deal with the shortcomings of the development environment? I have a myopic view of the entire Hubitat system, but I'm frustrated that they aren't doing exactly what I want fast enough.

I kid of course, but it's true for all of us. It may be titled Rant, but (most) all the comments from everyone are wonderful. All too often people "complaining" just get shut down, and the devs need feedback to know what will help the most people the most.

I don't really expect them to care what I want, but it'd also be helpful to me to know if my wants (better dev environment) will continue to take a backseat to something else. I think that's a reasonable thing to ask. (@bobbyD)

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As has been repeatedly expressed on this community, Hubitat Inc. do not disclose their future hardware or software plans.

If you'd like a preview for 2-4 weeks before a new platform version is released, join the beta group.

You may very well be frustrated, but you aren't their sole customer. They will do whatever fits their business plan best. And they do not disclose their business plan to customers.

It falls under the category of asking them to disclose their business plan. They're not going to do it. Personally, I think it is unreasonable for a customer to anticipate any business should reveal their future plans.

Each of us purchased our hub(s) with the hardware/software configuration they were shipped with. My C-5 never came with an indication that it would become Matter compatible, so I had no anticipation that it would. The only expectation I had was it would continue to have the functionality it had at the time of purchase. At least until the hardware failed.

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There are allot of problems that come with disclosing information for development and hopeful features before they are not ready. The platform I left to come to Hubitat was promising a Migration tool between hubs devices for years before I even got it. When I left that platform and came to Hubitat they still didn't have that feature released and I don't think it ever happened. That doesn't mean all situations end up that way, but all that does and that just creates anger from their communities.

I always suggest basing decisions on what something can do now and not what you hope it does in the future.

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So what? Google says they're working on AI OMG, everyone knows their business plan! (Granted, they say that at least partially for "investor relations", which doesn't apply to HE.)

There's a difference between them clarifying their mission/"business plan" and specifics of exactly how. If they say "Our focus for the next year will be... [usability/built-in apps/dev environment/device support/etc]." no one will be really disappointed if it changes in the future, because it's vague enough (and even if it changes, they still presumably would have made some progress towards it), unlike "We plan on adding X specific feature, Expect it around Q3." where people who wants X might feel they were lied to or it was a bait and switch.

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In the past, the Hubitat Staff has stated that catering to the development community (I.e. enhancing the dev tools, IDE, debugging, etcā€¦) is NOT their priority. They have greatly improved the developer docs, though.

In the 6+ years that I have been using the Hubitat platform, I have not seen anything that makes me believe their strategy/mission has changed. I have continued to see a focus on improving performance, reliability, and the addition of new features as their priorities.

Thus, as a community developer, if youā€™re not happy with the current Development Environment, I would not hold your breath waiting for significant changes.

Would I like to see improvements in the hub UI and App development tools? Sure. Do I want that as Hubitatā€™s #1 priority? Not at all. I really donā€™t spend much time in the hub UI these days. I just enjoy my automated home! :sunglasses:

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Meme Reaction GIF by Robert E Blackmon

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Alright, fair. I don't lurk in the forums enough to say if I missed them saying it - I'm not bitching they haven't told me, I'm asking.

improving performance, reliability,

IMO performance and reliability have been done. It's a generally stable environment. As you said, things change, and one way is to have accomplished the goal they set out with. So, has it changed? Or, if not - and this might probably fall under the stuff they shouldn't say - at what point would they consider it accomplished, and what's next?

addition of new features

Well, duh. That's just saying Hubitat is still actively under development. Granted, not making improvements is the default for most companies, but we see that much ourselves. I'd never suggest they have just stopped doing anything.

Developer documentation has been gradually added to over time, with more to come; no specific announcement of any particular change for any part of the documentation is generally ever made (except for the time it moved to an entirely new platform, solving some longstanding troubles with the former one).

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For me personally even as a beginner on the platform I didn't have a problem figuring things out. When I did have an issue, I asked questions. I came from Wink and the Wink platform was too basic but it was an entry level system for sure. Then I compared several other systems from Vera and ST and Hubitat. Hubitat for me was easier to deal with because lets face it, ST's interface is a pain in the butt on mobile devices. I like a full screen. Did I have a problem figuring out that Basic Rules was a good starting point? Nope. Did I have a problem figuring out the dashboard? Nope? Sure... Would be nice to have a somewhat better interface but drop downs were fine. It's not rocket science, even for programmers. Am I worried about where Hubitat is going? Nope.... I want stability. I worry much more that the thing works reliably than I worry about community developers documentation. (Not that I don't appreciate the community dev's. I just want my stable platform. Anything after that is just gravy)

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I have not seen much progress on documentation. Originally, there wasn't any, but only a few things differed from ST. But as far as what they do have, everything I've seen looks pretty much the same as when originally posted. About 30% of all functions/attributes/etc stubbed on the end, and most everything else has only the most basic stuff (ie just a list of parameters).

Are you referring to help documents for how to use the system and/or built-in apps?

If so, fair, I won't take away from that, but as I said previously, they're not the same and should be split apart. User help and system documentation aren't just different by topic, but their intended audience, goal, and how they are written.

I gave these examples previously... state variables aren't actually variables, and don't (really) support dictionaries. That has not been documented, despite developers having issues with it for years. As far as I've been able to find (the documentation system sucks in general) buttons aren't documented at all. I don't think #include is either. And I gather that buttons and includes are relatively recent additions, meaning they aren't even maintaining new things.

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Not specifically; I am referring to both. If you haven't noticed changes, the "raw" object docs have been added to a little but more is expected of those in the future (no timelines, as usual...but honestly much of what's left is almost self-explanatory by the name or rarely used in the Hubitat environment). But in the meantime, many requests for how to actually use them have been answered with a series of primers for app and driver development and even content for more advanced actual uses of these features. Not all may be what you are personally looking for, but it is absolutely not true that:

unless you have not looked since then.

They are separated. These are under the "Developer" heading and the /developer URL. Yes, the navigation and search are the same for all. The current version of the docs platform does not allow for this kind of separation, though that is expected to come in the next major releae and may help. (Stop me if you've heard this before, but they don't release timelines for new features, either. :slight_smile: )

This is also not true.

Do you have a link to this discussion? I'd be curious to learn more. The only problems I've seen is when people try to replace the entire state object with an entirely different Map, which won't work (the keys themselves must be manipulated).

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ĀÆ\(惄)/ĀÆ

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honestly much of what's left is almost self-explanatory by the name or rarely used in the Hubitat environment

That's a judgement call. And wrong. I know of more than one app that uses state variables. That barb is meant to say... if it is NOT documented, then it's NOT in there, so you are biased towards thinking that almost all of the documentation is "self-explanatory or rarely used" because you're only thinking of what IS in there. Which is in large part stubs! And being mixed with help/tutorials, well, frankly that bias is understandable, because when you think "documentation" you think... I dunno, "documents" (the whole thing, all help docs).

unless you have not looked since then

object docs have been added to a little

So I'm right. Unless you conflate tutorials with documentation (and even linguistically, they don't mean the same thing) documentation hasn't improved much.

This is gonna be a theme... They aren't "object documentation". They are "developer documentation". Yes, objects are documented, but so too are functions, system variables, commands, etc. But "help documentation" isn't a thing ("help documentation" would be documenting help, like style guides or article tracking).

They are separated. These are under the "Developer" heading and the /developer URL. Yes, the navigation and search are the same for all.

I'm curious what you thought I meant? That it doesn't give the attributes for the AirQuality capability in the middle of a guide on troubleshoot a Z-Wave network problem? Like "On the page, press the Repair button * airQualityIndex - NUMBER, range:0..500*, then wait for at least...." Again, my barb has a point, which is these tow things fundamentally don't go together. Dev documentations tend to be minimalist and strictly factual; help documents tends to give a narrative. And of course the target audience is different (tho that's a bit fuzzy with us). By intertwining them, I have noticed the different forms bleed into each other.

This is also not true.

My bad. I must be misremembering my surprise at stumbling over them (Buttons!! omg buttuunnnnns....) as them not being in there. In my defense, I did a cursory search, and of course it only displays as "preferences", which is only helpful for either those who already know wtf they are (that is, "it's self-explanatory") or 2) Read dev docs like they're tutorials. So, to give the dead horse another kick (stupid horse!), they should be separated, and I am very glad that you say there's plans to do that.

The only problems I've seen is when people try to replace the entire state object with an entirely different Map , which won't work (the keys themselves must be manipulated).

Other way around. state.var.remove('key') doesn't work. state.var = map does. I've been told if it's not in the documentation, you can just do a quick forum search, like "state variable not working".... (Okay, that one was just pure snark, sorry.) atomicState doesn't seem to update - #5 by Roguetech

You are attributing words to me that I did not say and meaning to the words I did say that I did not intend (and I think you are aware of this). I do not see how additional use of my time can be productive in this regard given the outcomes so far. Best of luck with whatever you decide to do in the future, whether it is with Hubitat or not.

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Iā€™ve been on the internet long enough to know how threads like this usually go. But Iā€™ve also been on this forum long enough to know that 99.9% of everyone here is genuinely helpful and kind, and weā€™ve seen that here in spades.

But Iā€™m going to mute this thread now. Youā€™re determined to maintain your mindset. None of us can help you with that. This isnā€™t an insult. You described your mindset quite clearly:

When people tell me who they are, I believe them.

I genuinely hope you find what you are looking for.

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@Roguetech - This type of response is not appreciated nor warranted. You are making assumptions about what I stated. Nor did I suggest anything regarding your intentions, thoughts, or assumptions.

As others have stated, I also wish you the best with whatever platform you end up with. This thread has run its course for me. Iā€™m out!

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Honestly I think this thread has really run it's course. It's starting to devolve,,,,Let's move on.

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