Question about non-dimmable light on a dimmer

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Theoretically...if I were to take a GE dimmer and set the parameters so that the ramp on/off was effectively instant, then attach a non-dimmable LED light (Pentair swimming pool light) to the dimmer...would it work?

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Depends on the light itself. I've found that some non-dimmable bulbs don't like dimmers no matter how fast the ramp rate. Since dimmers don't use relays for on/off a 0 delay ramp rate isn't the same thing as a relay on/off typically found in switches.

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Thanks. Probably best just to get the correct switch for the job instead of trying to save a couple bucks to run $800 worth of pool lights.

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:point_up: This, exactly!

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Brings up an interesting question, are "switch" type non-dimming controls, relay output or semiconductor output?

I know my "appliance" modules are relay, but I would like to know more about the wall "switches"

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GE/Jasco Z-Wave Switches (non-dimmers) use relays. You can even hear them click on and off. I am not sure about other devices.

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I believe some dimmers (GE?) have the option to use them in "Switch mode", effectively allowing them to be both a dimmer and a switch.

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Thanks @ogiewon, I have some outside motion detector lights that I want to automate (i.e. force on) under the "All exterior lights on" Rule. Just haven't gotten there but the semiconductor / relay question was in my mind (somewhere :slight_smile: )

John

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In simple terms, a Triac Dimmer, can not achieve 100% ON. Triacs always turn off at Zero Crossing. A pulse on the Triac's trigger will turn it on BUT the triac must have enough voltage across itself to even see the trigger.

We're talking 0.6 volts (6 tenths) When the 120-240vac signal gets below .7 then hits zero volts and the starts ramping to 120-240 again (positive of negative doesn't matter in this discussion.) There's TIME when the voltage is between those two 0.6 volts and that entire time, the triac is not functional. The load device may not appreciate the sudden snap in voltage.

Next up is the trigger generator.. it too is affected by Zero Crossing. It can operate on a DC supply derived from the AC but it has to be designed to turn on as soon as possible, which is always after the Triac's alive. Millions of devices manufactured and the designers rarely take the risk of a device not working at full on, so they pad the On trigger a fraction, but that might mean Max = 98% instead of 99%, and always less than 100%.

Non-dimmable LEDs are usually built using circuitry that appears capactive to a dimmer.. vs resistive.

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I guess my vision of an ultimate wall switch, dimmer that can be disabled to be a simple switch, third be able to select relay position and disable switch from toggling it so one could swap to smart bulbs and keep light socket powered but still have a way to control.

I understand Inovelli switches can disable relay for smart bulb use, anyone know if their dimmer can be put in a switch mode like the (GE?) ones @kilowatts mentions?

I would like to install switches that can fill all 3 roles, dumb bulbs, dumb dimming bulbs or smart bulbs if wanting colour, without having to swap wall switches or add battery remote fobs.

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I seem to recall someone saying that there were newer types of some switch (don't recall the brand) that used relay at one time, but now have switched to solid state. Of the Insteon and iDevices switches I have, both use a relay.

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I am not familiar with the circuitry of non- dimmable bulbs, however I find it difficult to believe the relatively small slice of ON time resulting for line based triggering would cause issues with any type of device. I can't quote any % distortion data but visually I've seen some pretty sad sine waves coming out of the wall.

In addition, US voltage can range from about 104 to 130 VAC. Even non-dimmable lamps must handle this range.

However when choosing a switch for a non-dimmable application I would think the switch mfg load compatibility specification would indicate the proper usage.

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I would think this should be no problem as you suggest John. I use extra Insteon dimmers to turn on electronic devices by setting them to a 0.1 sec ramp rate in the dimmer settings. Have had no issues at all, so I can't see that an LED bulb(s) wouldn't also be fine.

However, I do see @destructure00 (Chris') point though. $800 worth of lights isn't worth saving a few dollars. :wink:

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Thanks for bring us back to the original question. Were they my lights, I would check the light mfg for recommendations and any adverse effects on warranty status. Before deciding on an approach.

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I'm just going to buy another switch. Pool lights are expensive, no need to risk a dollar to save a dime.

I could (should?) just leave the current non-plus switch in there, since nobody ever uses the physical switch there's really no problem with state not updating. I'm just being picky in wanting all my non-plus devices gone.

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I'm probably a conservative sort but.....I was uncomfortable with a "could dim" switch operating my non-dimable motion detectors. When it comes to home automation I assume the wrong things could happen. Either my mistake or an update going screwy etc.

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