No it wouldn't
It doesn't have to act like a sniffer to give you details on your mesh, signals from nodes, and statistics and neighbors
2 Likes
Really? for the sniffer part? I know it can dual purpose and give the RF and noise/interference etc as several systems provide that info. However as for the sniffer that's a different firmware used...ahh.. wait. I'm still thinking of zsniffer and usb stick... so could it be implemented in parallel with controller?
Zniffer is promiscuous ie. not network specific. Obviously the Hubitat Radio must be network specific. But it better hear all the in-range radio traffic for it's own network. 
The question is about getting access to that 'stream'.
ooooh.. a new Z-Stream API? LOL
I have a few devices that will just not pair unless they are VERY close to the hub. Is it better to bring the hub to the installed device or the device to the hub? Or doesn't it matter.
John
Whisper Pairing is not currently in vogue.. but once it was and if you are Joining one of those.. yes, whisper distance is required... otherwise no.
2 Likes
Happened to read recently in this thread the feature set of Z-Wave 500 series (Z-Wave Plus) Zwave and zwave plus and was surprised to see that Network Wide Inclusion didn't become a standard feature until the 700 series. So it would be necessary to pair some devices (even newer Z-Wave Plus ones) within radio range of the hub depending on their feature set (not all, but you'd need to probe the specs to know).
I've always been puzzled why inclusion of the Z-Wave Plus repeater in the Iris V2 Plug fails unless done very close to the hub. Likely it doesn't use NWI. This is significant since it can effectively bork NWI for the mesh when used as a Z-Wave extender (it won't repeat NWI frames). Could explain a lot of 'fails to pair in place' issues even with the Z-Wave Plus devices that do support his feature.
1 Like
Which home automation systems work perfectly? My only real experience prior to HE is with SmartThings. I think they’re still working on being “good enough,” forget about perfection.
I've miscommunicated that. I meant branded systems like hue. Where everything works out of the box. People are expecting that (wrongfully) of HE. A mesh map or analyzer could help them understand how it works when you combine different kinds of devices from different brands.
2 Likes
Thank you all again for replying. Though I must say I don't understand some of the things mentioned here.
@SmartHomePrimer, do you mean Zigbee 3 magicaly solves all possible mesh problems so we wouldn't ever have problems anymore?
@zarthan, sorry but your solution is just not a solution, it feels more like a way to get rid of my suggestion... I could be wrong.
Here's what my map using the MonaLisa board looks like. I added python scripts and instructions to the MonaLisa guide.
2 Likes
@frits I am sorry that is how it came across. It was not my intention. While I do think your idea has great merit, it would not solve your problems. My point was about not spending resources to add something that would offer little real insight into the functioning of your mesh. If you or anyone wants to find where problems are, you truly need to get dedicated tools.
I understand the frustration of having problems and not having ways to find and fix those issues. Just bolting something on isn't enough. There are tools and they aren't necessarily expensive.
Edit:
I guess the real point is if you are having issues, don't wait for something that my never happen. Get the tools and diagnose the problem with something that goes further than anything that could be added.
1 Like
Do you think that there could be better diagnostics though?
Trying to figure out even the basic stuff is kind of all over the place. I mean for Zigbee if I'm an average user then I'm kinda stuck trying to understand the Zigbee details and/or maybe the child report page. With Z-Wave it's only the details page. Yes also maybe logs and events but I also have to make sure debugging is enabled (and then disabled so as not to bog things down). If a custom app / driver is the problem then I have to check the logs and maybe events. There is a ton of stuff.. and the symptom like an erratic device might not actually be the source of the issue. Not asking for super technical stuff - just some basics..
Spending some time to make a decent initial set of diagnostic pages maybe some health tests/reports and "send report / submit a ticket" thing might be useful. I really want both the user AND support to be able to get things done in a timely efficient manner if possible.
2 Likes
Fair enough I just think it's too complicated for average Joe. If there is just a zigbee page you can go to to see all LQI's of every device (repeated or not) you can easily see which ones might fall of the mesh soon.
And there is probably something similar for z-wave to give a simple indication of link quality.
That's all I'm suggesting. It gives the user understanding of why devices have random reliability.
No
I look at the Athom Homey example and it makes no sense just by looking at it. New users are still going to have to learn something. We can’t just expect to assemble a mesh network any way we want and expect that if we look at a map, we can learn the right way to do it.
If we learn and do it the right way from the start, the map is not needed.
1 Like
There is a lot of the device <-> hub communication that is thrown away. Recording the communication is expensive resource wise and so just the most basic and most relevant information is saved. I don't know at what point it could or would become excessive but think about debug logging. Global debug logging isn't available and individual logging is turned off after 30 minutes. It is that way for a reason. Recording logs is expensive. So how much extra information would you record. If you decide you want to capture and display some more diagnostic information that was previously discarded, it might mean rewriting a lot of drivers and core code that may only be of marginal use for a very small percentage of users. And you still need to interpret the results based on knowing the layout of the home. Poor performance of an individual device can be down to external interference, what is behind the walls and a million other things. And just raw numbers just don't help.
The Average Joe isn't going to benefit from more data unless they are willing to spend time learning how to diagnose the problems. And that isn't a bad thing. While adding a ton of diagnostic tools to a tiny inexpensive device might be possible, I just don't see the point in burdening that device when there are alternative solutions.
3 Likes
I completely agree with you on this. For me using an external tool or joining a device to analyze the network is part of the nature of the beast - and also good way to learn about the details of how all this comes together.
When I say diagnostic tools I'm thinking more like basic problem reports or diagnostic tests - don't need the user to parse the details just want the system to flag potential issues that in turn can be submitted to support for closer inspection/advice. While I do think visualizing the network is a great way to present the basics it certainly may not be practical.
Maybe HE is not really meant for the average user..
2 Likes
Just want to jump in and up-vote a better way to debug Z-Wave.
I have 65+ devices and although I followed all the rules (build out, mains powered first, 10 at a time, repair between each set, settle for a day before next, only Z-Wave Plus), I still have issues with intermittent lost and floods of repeated messages.
That's something I miss from Home Assistant. I wish I had gone down the ZigBee route but it's too late now. How about an unsupported websocket with the low-level Z-Wave events? I just give us access to the logs you use when trouble shooting setups remotely. I know it's there, just open it up with no promises or backwards compatibility caveats. I'm at the point of thinking of buying a commercial Zniffer tool... Please give the Z-Wave logs?
1 Like
I think that's a little naive to be honest, no offense. Sometimes things just go wrong even when you do everything right, especially with a lot of moving parts (devices).
We have a lot geeks that love to tinker just like mechanics will tune their car over the weekend. Yes, a lot of customers don't care but giving some low level tools/access to allow us to debug this would help a lot. Especially since we can't back up the Z-Wave mesh and rebuilding devices and apps from scratch is just too time consuming (something I also miss from other Hubs).
Help us help ourselves?
1 Like
You now know what to look for when you get the tool, since you learned the basics. 
Many do not and, even once they understand the basics, that’s all they care to know. Putting development efforts and hub resources toward that is unnecessary since the add on tool better serves that role. That is the consensus I’m reading, and I agree.
1 Like
