Final thoughts from a new customer lost

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Hi all, I am a HK user who has been looking for powerful automation capabilities beyond what HK, Eve & 3rd party apps can provide. I also have devices that I would like to bring into my platform. I tried Hoobs and HB but their support was both arrogant and lacking. So I looked for a new option and was initially extremely excited by what I found here with HE. I wanted to share a few thoughts about my experience here:

  • First and foremost the community members in here (HE customers) are very helpful and friendly. Thank you! And I see how you all work together to help each other as a community. Everyone was full of good intentions with each of my questions while trying to get set up. However I think depending on an army of your customers to get your new customer set up is horrible for the new customer. It forced me to basically ask one specific question at a time and then patiently wait for generous other customers to answer those questions for me. Obviously with a product this complicated I had a ton of questions and getting them answered in an efficient manner was impossible with this support system.
  • This product marketing should warn that there is no company provided human support for initial set up for new customers. I get that the core audience/target market is somebody who is a hobbyist or a programmer or a professional implementer/installer. And I get that in order to sell this product at this price point there is a little room for more costs. However as a new user who is more technically proficient than the average consumer, but far less proficient than a computer programmer, I found getting set up to be confusing and full of speed bumps. I had expectations that I should never have had if the limitations were explained to me before I got this deep into the process.
  • My suggestion is to offer a separate price level for customers who want some initial handholding to get set up. I would have gladly paid extra for a set up phone call or chat session.
  • You should explain to all of us HK users who may be flocking here due to the recent integration that third-party community apps cannot be imported into HK as they can be with other products such as HB or HA. This was the primary reason for my interest in this product. When I learned that it was not possible and I would have to use virtual buttons as a workaround that took away my primary motivation for wanting to use HE. Hubitat wasted a lot of my time by not making that clear upfront. (Please don’t bother pasting some small print that had I interpreted it properly would’ve explained this to me. My point is it should be made abundantly clear and it is not. This detail is rather buried in the details.)
  • I understand the advantages of local control with HE. However, to not support the basic Lutron CasĂ©ta hub is absurd. You’re basically saying that your product is not intended for the majority of Lutron customers who enjoy the basic Lutron CasĂ©ta hub. I can tell you of the hundreds of people I’ve interacted with and their Lutron set up nobody ever told me they were really happy that they had the Pro Caseta version because that kept their light switches local. Again, I’m sure this is very important for many people here. However, the lack of useability for my Lutron equipment and my lack of desire to chase the ultimate local system meant that this was yet one more reason this product is not for me.
  • Lastly let me share my set up experiences with other smart home products. Sonos has an 800 number with a human being that can answer your questions within seconds. So does Lutron. So does Leviton. Even Logitech Harmony still offers human telephone support for a product that they quit selling last year. They state they will continue to offer human support for this product that they discontinued. Bond Bridge is another example of a company that is a technical product yet provided free human support. Brilliant is another with excellent human support. I could go on….

It looks like I am heading back to HB and most likely will pay a consultant to get me over the initial speed bumps I’ve been running into over there. Thanks again to everybody that took the time to try to help me. You were all extremely generous and I wish you all the best. I’m just going to patiently wait for Matter to solve some of these issues for me in the years ahead.

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Plenty of the replies in here come from the staff. Sorry you had such a bad experience. Hope you find what you are looking for.

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I'm going to predict that you won't find a solution. The companies that were close to what you describe / aspire to are gone. Lutron is the best of them but they are a lighting company. But really, good luck, I hope to be completely wrong.

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I think this is a very naïve expectation. The Philips Hue bridge and Lutron Caséta hub have native Apple certified HomeKit integrations.

Those native integrations expose devices directly paired to them to HomeKit. No one anticipates that the Hue bridge will expose a MyQ garage door opener to HomeKit, or that the Caséta hub will expose Tuya WiFi dimmers to HomeKit.

So when I heard that Hubitat was introducing a HomeKit integration they hoped to get certified by Apple, I anticipated that they would expose devices directly paired to Hubitat. And not third-party devices.

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Expectations aside, this is noted in the docs, which are accessible from the "Documentation" link on the Hubitat website before purchase, the "?" link in the app when you're using it (same for most built-in apps and UI pages), and other places--and it's in the introduction, not buried in "fine print":

Not trying to dismiss any of the OP's concerns, as different products cater to different needs (and have different price points; sure, you can get phone support for Lutron, but how much is their cheapest switch?). I just don't think this one is hidden. :slight_smile:

I can't disagree that it would be great if this weren't the case, but it seems to be what Apple requires for certification--which Hubitat, unlike HomeBridge, is aiming for. It's also not uncommon; a Hue Bridge doesn't even allow non-Hue bulbs to HomeKit, even though the are paired directly to the same network via Zigbee, same as Hue bulbs, which is likely for the same reason (though with Hue in the past it's sometimes been "just because"...).

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Sorry for your experience and thanks for sharing.

When I call Sonos for support of rooms that drop-out and fade back in, I'm on hold for a lifetime and finally start out with a junior agent that wants me to completely restart and rebuild my Sonos system of 12 devices. I send them diagnostics and they say that they are sending it to their senior technicians, which eventually state the obvious answer, I need to upgrade the audio and wifi hardware, which is nearly on all the latest (expensive) versions!

So if you have luck with the companies you listed on first try, you have the Midas touch. Especially with companies like Sonos & Logitech.

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I think you've just described >90% of HE users! :wink:

I think some of the community guys here also consult on HE?

The products that you mention are all single ecosystem products (and all of them cost more than hubitat) so it would be far easier to provide user support (and the cost of doing so is built into the product price). TBH I doubt you will find a general purpose home automation system that will be 100% user friendly from the get go.

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I’m not an expert by any means. I started slow and posted questions on this forum, and was able to get things working. Patience is required, and there is a learning curve. The end result is worth it.

Not every app or device will work with Hubitat, but hundreds do. No system is perfect, but Hubitat is the best in my humble opinion.

Maybe give it another try with the understanding there may be some bumps on the road. I don’t think you would be dissatisfied in the end.

This community is here to help you.

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Please don't take this the wrong way, but what company will hold your hand to set up a product? Maybe in 1970 that would happen, but now you get a phone tree, and someone says "reboot the device" and that is about as far as you get. With something that can potentially be complex as a home automation hub, you aren't getting personalized phone or chat support. You would have to hire a consultant to get what you are asking for.

is to offer a separate price level for customers who want some initial handholding to get set up.

This could be more expensive and more complicated than you think. Hubitat is sold worldwide. You would have to have someone who spoke every single language, and was familiar with the devices that are available in every location. Then you consider time zones, and other issues. You would have a staff of dozens if not hundreds of staff to handle this. In the USA at least, between pay and healthcare benefits, this would cost the company probably $100,000 at a minimum per staff member to handle this request. They would never break even let alone make it profitable to hire staff for this. You (the customer) would be far better off hiring a local expert for this niche request.

Again, to be a bit blunt, call Apple and complain. That is the only way this will ever change. You do realize Hubitat has to follow Apple rules to become Homekit certified? Apple are the ones setting this stupid artificial restriction. This is one example of the many reasons I refuse to buy Apple products. I am very certain that Hubitat wants to be able to integrate all sorts of devices with Homekit, that would greatly expand the Hubitat userbase and sell lots of hubs.

This is because the basic Lutron Bridge only talks to the cloud. The Bridge Pro adds the local communication. To Hubitat it was more important to talk to Lutron locally rather than to involve the cloud like every other hub does. I think it is silly of Lutron to have two products to support, and two separate SKU to produce and track, and to have to develop and support two separate hub firmware etc, but what do I know?

I always advise people on Reddit that ask about Lutron to buy the Bridge Pro vs the cheaper Bridge because they never know when they will want to add the window shades/blinds that the Pro hub supports, or use the Telnet local communication. But alas nobody listens and they buy the cheaper hub...

You could of course write your own integration (or find someone to write one for you) that uses the Lutron cloud, but you would be very unsatisfied with how slow and unreliable it was. Local is a lot better in nearly every situation.

Brilliant also sells a $500 light switch to suckers willing to pay that for an ancient Android 4 technology. Brilliant also doesn't integrate with other hubs or other ecosystems for the most part, they are a closed ecosystem. So they can afford to pay someone to answer the phone.

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There are few companies that do that, much less ones as small as hubitat.

Most people that come to HE are not programmers nor do they need to be. Using apps such as simple automation gets most people up and running quickly.

I'm not sure I understand this. There are no third party apps from anyone that can be brought into homekit. There are certain restrictions on devices that can be brought into homekit from HE. The reasons for these restrictions are because hubitat is becoming HomeKit certified and apple imposes these restrictions, not hubitat. HA and HB can do so because they aren't constrained by certifications. On the flip side of that if Homekit changes something, certified systems will be updated instantly while HB and HA will have to scramble while people's stuff remains broken. The otherside is even with HB and HA it's still unidirectional. You can't bring HK stuff into them. If you have an HK device you still have to use virtual switches to have another system control it.

No, Hubitat's main concern is LOCAL control. In order to use the basic hub they would have to enable a cloud based implementation and that is unacceptable in the base product. Simply upgrade your Lutron hub and you're golden. I have around 60 Lutron devices and am quite happy.

In the end I hope you find what you're looking for. The ultimate goal for those that use hubitat is 100% local control. This is a core tenant of the HE philosophy. There are some cloud integrations but they are community based. I will also say HK does not allow the same level of automation that HE provides. HA does but that is a bit more complicated to set up and maintain for the average user. They also do not provide a phone number to call.

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:thinking:

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You trolling or just haven't done any research? These are shown right on the Support page.

Support
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This is not an issue for the overwhelming majority of users, though.

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It’s hard to say what the inflection point is for level of tech savviness that makes for a reasonable user experience with Hubitat. I agree it’s probably something greater than the general consumer. But it’s far below that of computer programmer.

Knowledge of computer coding is actually overall irrelevant to use of this platform, since one can use the built in apps and drivers or install code written by others. I couldn’t code my way out of a wet paper bag.

I would argue the term that applies to most users is

It takes some time and interest in tinkering to make good use of the Hubitat platform, more than anything else. That may limit its overall audience either for the time being, or perhaps forever.

But to get a super easy-to-use automation system off-the-shelf, you’re stuck with something like Wink. If you need concierge-level service, you have to pay a lot more for something like Control4.

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Same here. I am a complete idiot when it comes to code. If code was required for Hubitat like it is for Home Assistant, I would have given up on Hubitat a long time ago.

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As others pointed out, pretty sure that's the vast majority of HE users. It's certainly me.

I'm pretty new to Hubitat myself. I did some reading, made use of the forums, and got some basics up and running the first day. I think by the end of the weekend I had user drivers and apps installed and a whole bunch of stuff running while I transitioned away from my old stuff. I then kept adding to my knowledge and building out more and more over the following weeks. I think that's really the only way to do it. Learn what you need to get started, and just keep building on that. I really didn't know what to expect when I purchased my HE, but for me, the learning curve didn't strike me as unreasonable. I guess the effort just didn't match your expectations. Maybe you just needed a little more patience - or maybe it just wasn't a good fit for you. It was good of you to come back in here and share your thoughts and experience. I'm sure the Hubitat staff who are in here will find that valuable.

I do use Lutron Caséta. It's unfortunate that Lutron only has telnet on the pro bridge, but the difference between the the two bridges is the cost of one Lutron Caséta switch (and I have about 50 Caséta devices). I get that some may already have purchased the non-pro bridge and have to deal with that, but if Lutron is your chosen path, that's a relatively small investment (my opinion) towards building a robust and reliable system.

Just a couple of thoughts from another relatively new Hubitat user. I wish you better luck wherever you land next, and maybe Hubitat staff can gain something from the thoughts you left behind here.

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Allow me to clear up some confusion.

  • Of course I never expected more out of Lutron or Philips Hue because they do not provide third-party apps and drivers. I never expected native brands to help bring in more brands into the platform. However, when I start seeing that third-party community apps and drivers are provided in a certain service, then that gets one’s hopes up that those are available. Again I only was hoping to access the HE community apps and drivers. I never expected more out of Lutron (no reference here to the Pro hub) or Hue or some of the other examples that you guys have asked about.
  • I’ve already stated that I understand that this is Apple’s decision and not Hubitat’s. My beef is not with Apples decision as they have their standards. My belief is that I should have had clear information, upfront, and ahead of my purchase about the restrictions that this product has for people integrating with HomeKit, and none of those restrictions were apparent or obvious.
  • Yes the majority of smart home products I have purchased in the last year have provided phone support if needed for initial set up. Some of these items are much more expensive than Hubitat, and some of these items are are less expensive than HE. And I agree the first level of support is usually a phone tree that is very basic level of support, and as the support needs grow, the junior people can pass you on to a senior person. neonturf doesn’t think it’s possible to have consultants. Look at the Hoobs website. They offer $50 consultation set up meetings. They don’t have to have different languages and currencies,
    time zones etc. It is very achievable.
  • YouTube orientation tutorials I avoid like the plague. They are always written for the masses and especially generic. “Welcome to us“ videos are a complete waste of time unless you are truly starting from scratch. Specific videos for specific product installation would be great. But generic orientation videos especially for people who are already active with a Smart Home are a waste of time.
  • The main missing ingredient for people adding HomeKit integration would be an FAQ which very boldly explains the issues that I outlined in my OP.

I hope everybody takes this criticism for what it is - not starting a fight or a debate or pointing fingers. I’m just sharing my frustrations so if you guys choose to take that into consideration with how you deal with customers going forward, that is your business. Thank you and good luck.

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So your final thoughts were not, in fact, your final thoughts? :smile:

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I mentioned these above, but for a visual, here is the second paragraph of the docs:

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I would suggest Savant or Control4, there is no other option with them then having them guiding you through every single detail of their ecosystem. However they will also oblige your willingness to "gladly paid extra" for it.........very much extra

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