Bad Rule/setup or ZigBee issue?

they are but they do not repeat

thank you much busy with work for next few but will take look at this for sure :slight_smile:

Gotcha. That eliminates that possibility then..

I'm still thinking might not be a bad idea to throw another repeater in there just for safe measures. Most of your repeating devices don't show great LQI.

@scoob8000 @Tony @brad5 @danabw @aaiyar @jtmpush18

here is fast drawing for the house the bolts are repeaters, the circle the HUB, and the star thing are major bulb groupings.

where should i place reapters?

Usually having a good repeater or two within a few meters of the hub is sufficient. But that doesn't seem to be working for you. If you can easily relocate the repeaters trial and error may be your only option. So I guess the answer to your question is (forgive me) 'somewhere else'.

You'll know pretty quickly if anything changes (for better or worse) for the hub's neighbors, at least, because the neighbor link costs shown on the getChildandRouteinfo page get exchanged several times a minute. You have to refresh the page to see changes. It won't be necessary to power down the hub for it to select better neighbors (though once the neighbor table is looking good, you might further improve things with regard to the child/parent distribution with a hub shutdown & 'heal' wait).

Note that with that many child devices (and with no mesh map to see the parent/child affinity) moving a repeater at random will probably result in a loss of connectivity to some of them if their parent moves out of range. A normally functioning mesh should sort this out within minutes with no intervention required; the devices should just pick another available parent on their own. Worst case you might need to rejoin a missing device.

If you've inadvertently created a 'hole' in your mesh by removing a repeater (possibly stranding some child devices out of range), that's an issue you should fix after you've improved the hub's neighbor situation.

If you can't see any improvement in the hub's neighbor table even with additional repeaters closer to the hub it's possible its radio isn't working right... I assume there's nothing unusual (RF-wise) in the immediate vicinity of the hub? Placement adjacent to wifi access points (closer than a meter) isn't recommended even though it often doesn't seem to cause issues.

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It is really hard to tell because radio waves aren't always what we imagine them to be.

To me, you have a lot of repeaters in that one place. And I think there are maybe gaps in where you have repeaters. I know it is tough, it is vey hard to get an outlet or switch in just the right spot, but maybe something like this?

You may also want to play with the hub position. Maybe it is behind something that is blinding the devices from seeing the hub. You might even try tipping the hub up on edge or mounting it higher or lower from where it is now.

Hopefully this hub isn't too near a Wifi router. And try to avoid things like refrigerators, metal heat ducts, mirrors, and so on. Again, I know how tough it is to find the right place. My hub ended up in the basement, which isn't ideal, but that is where the infrastructure is (ethernet, power, etc). Everything is a compromise...

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Apologies if this is already covered earlier in the thread but have you checked for potential wifi interference? Zigbee and wifi channels overlap and that can cause issues.

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Another few points.
I have personally found that adding repeaters, or moving devices, does not mean that changes take place immediately. I have found that it usually takes as much as 24-48 hours until things settle down. Patience is critical.

Also, in contrast to some others, I have found that repeaters (otherwise known as "routers" in Zigbee lingo), are not of the same caliber. Some are much better than others. I've already mentioned that the Sonoff USB dongle is excellent.

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Not disagreeing with your recommendation of patience, but to clarify the point I was trying to make, changes in neighbor tables are apparent almost immediately (meaning, within 15 seconds or so) and don't require a longer waiting period in order to observe. That's why/how Zigbee 'self heals'.

For example here's a shot of my hub's neighbor table about 15-20 seconds after unplugging the 16DB outlet (which prior to this was showing 1's for inCost and outCost. The age counter now shows '7', meaning the hub hasn't received link status within 7 15-sec intervals so has set the outCost to 0 (meaning no status provided). If it remained in this status much longer, the entry could disappear if there was a better neighbor in range to take its place.

And here's a shot taken almost immediately after (no more than 20 seconds, anway) the 16DB device has been plugged back in. Within 2 age intervals (per the Zigbee spec the age counter always starts at 3 for established links) the inCost and outCost are now back to '1':

Again, not trying to be pedantic, but being able to observe almost in real time the status of the RF links with the hubs' neighbors makes it straightforward to know if moving things around is going to help or hurt how the hub communicates with the rest of your mesh. True however that seeing the ultimate effect may take longer, as moving a router previously used elsewhere could also produce effects of its own.

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channel 9-10-11 are off on my home WIFI

did the 20 minutes and added 2 routers above but one is bad spot have to move it

Parent child parameters
EzspGetParentChildParametersResponse [childCount=0, parentEui64=0000000000000000, parentNodeId=65535]

Child Data

Neighbor Table Entry
[Kitchen undercab corner, 08DD], LQI:239, age:6, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Washer, 237A], LQI:255, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:1
[Kitchen undercab peninsula, 3869], LQI:37, age:7, inCost:7, outCost:0
[ZigBee hall router, 52E9], LQI:255, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:1
[Garage Relay, 6C5F], LQI:174, age:7, inCost:7, outCost:0
[Kitchen Undercab Spice, 7351], LQI:245, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Kitchen under cabinet stove, 7FF7], LQI:242, age:5, inCost:5, outCost:7
[ZigBee repeat hall , 8508], LQI:255, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:3
[Kitchen undercab sink, 8D36], LQI:237, age:3, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Kitchen under cabinet spice, A2D9], LQI:229, age:3, inCost:5, outCost:7
[ZigBee repeat dinning room , C482], LQI:255, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:5
[Hall repeater front, DE95], LQI:254, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:3
[ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6], LQI:251, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:2
[null, EEE3], LQI:100, age:7, inCost:7, outCost:0

Route Table Entry
status:In Discovery, age:0, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [null, 1292] via [Washer, 237A]
status:In Discovery, age:0, routeRecordState:2, concentratorType:High Ram, [null, 0000] via [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6]
status:In Discovery, age:0, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [null, 991E] via [ZigBee hall router, 52E9]
status:In Discovery, age:0, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [null, 10D8] via [ZigBee hall router, 52E9]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Hall master 3, 5FC2] via [Hall repeater front, DE95]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Alli Bottom Nail Light, 6B3C] via [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Alli Makeup Light, 3E46] via [Hall repeater front, DE95]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Hall master 1, E3D9] via [ZigBee repeat hall , 8508]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Front entryway 3, 3F73] via [ZigBee repeat hall , 8508]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Entryway floor lamp lower, 8853] via [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Entryway floor lamp top, AEA3] via [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6] via [ZigBee kitchen repeat , EBE6]

Several things look better in that screenshot.

The busiest repeater EBE6 (at least recently, based on route requests still active in the route table entries) was at LQI 244, inCost 5, outCost 5 in a prior screenshot; now it shows LQI 251, inCost 3, outCost 2 which is an improvement. And now you have routers 237A and 52E9 showing metrics in the 'best' category (LQI 255, inCost 1, outCost 1) as welll as 8508 and DE95 showing good numbers (LQI >= 254, inCost 1, outCost 3).

Hopefully those better numbers translate into fewer retries, less latency and better performance.

It's been great reading this and watching the bird dogging going on.

This whole realm of repeating efficiency & effectiveness makes one wonder if the folks working the MATTER standards have incorporated a smarter mousetrap.

Ya almost wish the repeater(router) could keep just-a-little-bit of history and actually TELL you more of how it sees it's surroundings... where/what path to devices it's been trying to service ...and how that might be getting clobbered by traffic/walked on by radio interference/or usurped by peers.

another update.
I moved the Hall into the pool room (basically on the other of the wall from where it was)
I had remove and readd the pool router ( it gave me issues last be seemed fine how nothing using it and name would never show up in the table
even after only a few minute device have jumped on it

I guess my goal is throw the signal across the pool and down the hall to the HUB now (where zwave goes the other way)

Parent child parameters
EzspGetParentChildParametersResponse [childCount=6, parentEui64=0000000000000000, parentNodeId=65535]

Child Data
child:[Hall front motion, 1E39, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Allie corner ceiling motion , E287, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall hot water leak , CD64, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Master bath water leak, 07FB, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Hall master motion , F457, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
child:[Alli Corner Light, 0217, type:EMBER_END_DEVICE]

Neighbor Table Entry
[Garage Relay, 2732], LQI:232, age:5, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Washer, 3C99], LQI:254, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:1
[ZigBee repeat pool east, 446A], LQI:255, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:3
[ZigBee router pool west, 4B6A], LQI:254, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:1
[Kitchen under cabinet stove, 788A], LQI:209, age:7, inCost:5, outCost:0
[Kitchen Undercab Spice, 86D8], LQI:243, age:7, inCost:5, outCost:0
[Kitchen undercab sink, 8D36], LQI:233, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7
[null, 9192], LQI:2, age:7, inCost:7, outCost:0
[null, B8F7], LQI:226, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7
[ZigBee repeat dinning room , C482], LQI:254, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:5
[Zigbee repeat pool pump, DE95], LQI:255, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:3
[ZigBee router hall, DF3D], LQI:255, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:1
[Kitchen under cabinet spice, E52F], LQI:238, age:3, inCost:5, outCost:7
[ZigBee repeat Living, EBE6], LQI:254, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:2
[Kitchen undercab coffee, EEE3], LQI:237, age:5, inCost:5, outCost:7

Route Table Entry
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Entryway floor lamp middle , 7AA0] via [ZigBee repeat Living, EBE6]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Entryway floor lamp top, AEA3] via [ZigBee router hall, DF3D]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Entryway floor lamp lower, 8853] via [ZigBee router hall, DF3D]
status:Active, age:0, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Dining light 3, E1C5] via [ZigBee repeat Living, EBE6]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Alli Chandelier 3 , 57AE] via [Washer, 3C99]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Front entryway 1, 6214] via [Zigbee repeat pool pump, DE95]
status:Active, age:0, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Dining light 2, D97C] via [ZigBee repeat pool east, 446A]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Kitchen under cabinet spice, E52F] via [Washer, 3C99]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Front entryway ceiling motion , 5841] via [ZigBee repeat Living, EBE6]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Kitchen ceiling motion, 7721] via [ZigBee router pool west, 4B6A]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Wash ceiling motion , 5CC2] via [ZigBee router pool west, 4B6A]
status:Unused
status:Unused
status:Unused
status:Unused

how do i find the NULL devices? what are they ? they dont show up in the zigbee details list wit hthe reported ID 9192 or B87F ??????

Edit 2: im still having trouble with the lights in the hall not working correctly even after a few weeks of the new repeater in the hall

doing another 20 minute thing now hoping to make more stuff use the new repeaters

i just noticed this, those bunch of repeater are my kitch under cab light that where recommened here lol
I put one of the new route on the other side of the wall I put a repeat across from it (the router now shows 1:1 on both costs) I also put a router in the hall

Finally I cannot moved the hub without a huge ■■■ pain the easier thing i guess would be to add another hub in the kitchen area

the hub is about 4-5 feet from my aruba access point but they are both on/near the ceiling though

@Tony
updated placement drawing

Parent child parameters
EzspGetParentChildParametersResponse [childCount=3, parentEui64=0000000000000000, parentNodeId=65535]

Child Data
No information for Child 0
child:[Allie corner ceiling motion , E287, type:EMBER_SLEEPY_END_DEVICE]
No information for Child 2

Neighbor Table Entry
[Garage Relay, 2732], LQI:241, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Washer, 3C99], LQI:254, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:1
[ZigBee repeat pool east, 446A], LQI:255, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:3
[ZigBee router pool west, 4B6A], LQI:251, age:4, inCost:3, outCost:1
[Kitchen under cabinet stove, 788A], LQI:238, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Kitchen Undercab Spice, 86D8], LQI:246, age:5, inCost:5, outCost:7
[Kitchen undercab sink, 8D36], LQI:240, age:3, inCost:5, outCost:7
[null, B8F7], LQI:51, age:7, inCost:7, outCost:0
[ZigBee repeat dinning room , C482], LQI:255, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:5
[Zigbee repeat pool pump, DE95], LQI:255, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:2
[ZigBee router hall, DF3D], LQI:255, age:4, inCost:1, outCost:1
[Kitchen under cabinet spice, E52F], LQI:246, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7
[ZigBee repeat Living, EBE6], LQI:255, age:3, inCost:1, outCost:2
[Kitchen undercab coffee, EEE3], LQI:241, age:4, inCost:5, outCost:7

Route Table Entry
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Entryway floor lamp lower, 8853] via [ZigBee repeat Living, EBE6]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Alli Chandelier 2, C810] via [ZigBee router pool west, 4B6A]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Dining light 3, E1C5] via [ZigBee repeat Living, EBE6]
status:Unused
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Hall master 2, 2212] via [Washer, 3C99]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Hall closet light, DF06] via [Zigbee repeat pool pump, DE95]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Front entryway 1, 6214] via [Zigbee repeat pool pump, DE95]
status:Active, age:32, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Living Room ceiling motion tv, D53B] via [ZigBee repeat Living, EBE6]
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Front entryway 2, 5F64] via [ZigBee repeat Living, EBE6]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Garage Relay, 2732] via [ZigBee router pool west, 4B6A]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:32, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Dining ceiling motion, 06A7] via [ZigBee router pool west, 4B6A]
status:Unused
status:Active, age:64, routeRecordState:0, concentratorType:None, [Dining light 2, D97C] via [ZigBee router pool west, 4B6A]

You don't have to find them. References to them will disappear (and stop appearing) when your network stabilizes; usually you'll see them when a device has lost its link to the mesh and hasn't been able to re-establish it within a certain amount of time.

When that happens, it initiates a 'leave' process (or is told to leave, if it's a child of a parent device that thinks it is AWOL) and attempts to re-join the network automatically. If successful, it gets assigned a new random short ID (4-digit hex) by whatever repeater handles the join request and then broadcasts its presence on the network (along with its fixed 64-bit MAC address). If that short ID had previously been associated with a different MAC address (there's always a chance there will be a collision since they get generated at random), it will get assigned another one.

That way all devices (mainly, routers that may have stored routes associated with the old short ID) can recognize that it is the re-incarnation of a device that was previously joined. The hub will match up the MAC address, previous device name, and new shortID so that everything works as before. Until that sorts itself out, you may see NULL associated with the old short ID in cached references to the device.

2 Likes

So that snapshot is showing you've got 4 repeaters (EBE6, 4B6A, 3C99, DE95) that show good or OK numbers. Since the Route Table entries represent recent route requests (and what you see there depends on what has been happening in the network recently), you need to observe it for a while and see if any other repeaters show up as 'via's there. If not, those four appearing after 'via' could be the only ones actually able to function within a 1-hop radius of the hub. It doesn't mean that the other repeaters aren't doing anything useful; they could be active neighbors of repeaters elsewhere in the mesh (HE only provides a view the hub's neighbor table).

I'm curious as to why all the repeaters lined up there-- are they in fact just repeaters (and devices that actually serve an additional purpose?). Without knowing the actual physical characteristics that your map represents it looks like you'd want to spread them around, or get rid of them if they aren't needed (retain enough to support your end devices, though). What is the donut router/repeater device?

For Zigbee, more than enough repeaters (where 'enough' means sufficient child slots to support end devices as required, and provide sufficient RF coverage with a bit of redundancy if desired) is actually too many-- too many Zigbee repeaters in very close proximity means a lot of unnecessary link status traffic and neighbor table management. Probably not too many cases in a home environment where this is actually an issue (I use a power strip with 5 adjacent Iris plugs with no problems) but it is an issue with commercial lighting applications using hundreds of devices (so they pay attention to how many mains powered fixtures are routers). It might help your situation to spread them around a bit and see what happens.

[quote="Tony, post:38, topic:109702"]
I'm curious as to why all the repeaters lined up there-- are they in fact just repeaters (and devices that actually serve an additional purpose?). Without knowing the actual physical characteristics that your map represents it looks like you'd want to spread them around, or get rid of them if they aren't needed (retain enough to support your end devices, though). What is the donut router/repeater device?[/quote]
These were recommended to me on this forum for under cabinet lights so that is why they are all there
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01M98S1LW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

the Doughnut are the Routers I bought (link high up in this thread) I bought them because i had more Child device than my HUB and other repeaters could handel (and the hall light near it not working, and still or not working correctly)

I have one on the other side of the wall of the undercabinates to try and get the signal to the HUB better (utility room/walls blocks signal)

So those 5 stacked lightning bolts would likely support 20-30 child devices (can't say for sure but repeaters usually can support 4-6 or so). Just how many end devices are in your network?

How many of those Sylvania undercabinet lights do you have? I'm not familiar with them... I know that the description says 'Zigbee hub required' but are they actually considered 'end devices'? They may not need a parent device at all...

One more question. Previously you said that you were having problems mainly with devices closest to the hub. Is that still the case? It's still seems unusual to see the hub having so many devices in its child table (normally other viable routers in the vicinity of the hub tend to attract them-- unless their child tables are chock full... another unusual scenario... if that is the case it might explain your problem).