Amazon's Sidewalk Network goes live Jun 8 and if you own any Amazon devices you are opted in by default

That's the whole purpose of this "sidewalk" the answer to your question "now" is ZERO, they are STEALING my and my neighbors Wifi internet that WE PAY FOR, to allow operation of their devices.

Your logic is misguided.

But how does that disprove my point/reasoning? By that same token, you (or rather we) chose to buy the Alexa knowing it had no monthly fee and knowing Amazon was using our data. Granted none of us probably read the EULA, but it's all in there.

My take - if Alexa had a monthly fee, Alexa would not exist. The user base would be so small no vendors would have ever developed skills for it and no one would have used it. It would have died off quickly. The fact that it was free is what led to a thriving community and users going to device manufacturers and demanding Alexa support which led to more users and more skills and hence why it is popular. A monthly fee would have killed Alexa because no one would have paid for it. If you would have told me Alexa would become such an important part of my home back when it came out (and I thought it was a gimmick like Siri) I'd never believe you. So if you asked me to pay for it I'd have said no way. Now here I am using it near constantly, and not just for smart hoeunm purposes.

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Fair point!

Lol Ok. That's fine, we can disagree. However I don't think I'm misguided. You're using words like "stealing" for things you "willfully gave permission to do" via a contract you accepted, and like most of us, probably never read. But yeah, I'll accept my logic is the one that is completely misguided here :slight_smile:

Oh and again, you can opt out with no repercussions, so how is this theft exactly?

Anyway, that's about all I have to say. For those of you in my neighborhood, enjoy stealing my Wifi! Sidewalk is enabled and ready for sharing with everyone :wink:

No, that is where you are misguided. Having to "Opt-In" would be giving permission. Requiring a manual "Opt-Out" after you begin using the resources without authorization is Stealing.

Nah, you're wrong. You signed a legally binding contract! That's when we gave them permission. I won't speak for you, but I know for a fact I signed that contract without reading one word of it. Is that Amazon's fault? Nope, that's my fault, shame on me! Your authorization was accepting their EULA, you might not like that, but any court on Earth will uphold that as authorization.

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But WiFi is not what is being shared, right? I thought it was some LoRa like protocol at 900 MHz that was capped at 80 kbps.

Right now, everyone with newer model Echo devices who has Sidewalk turned on is subsidizing me and my Gen 1 Echos!

Winner, winner, chicken dinner! :joy:

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My internet provider is not in their EULA, EULA's are not open ended terms must be Defined.

Ok. Pardon my bluntness for a moment, your legal degree is from what law school? We might not like it, but I bet Amazon's legal team did their homework here. I will assume Amazon's team of legal advisors that said this is legal, the fact that it's been in place for almost 8 months now with no legal injunctions against it in any court that I can find might just mean that, though you don't like it, though you think it is personally wrong, it's not theft under the laws of any countries in which Amazon operates. If you think that should be different, welp, I guess run for Congress. Not sure what else to say.

As a note, as someone who did study contract law and torts back when I wanted to be a lawyer before I decided technology was far more fun, you'd be really surprised how open ended contracts are allowed to be in the US. You don't think in all the various things you've used from Amazon in the last year that they never had an "we updated our terms!" that you blindly clicked yes to? There was your consent!

You can hate it, you can think it's unethical, and think it's immoral... but none of that makes it illegal.

The school that teaches you that Corporations just because they have legal teams still routinely loose lawsuits, pay out billions in settlements and more often then should be operate outside the bounds of being on the up-and-up.

I thought you were stating I was the legal expert in the beginning?

Then sue them, go for it! Teach them a lesson they'll not soon forget!

Btw, for all of our reference:

4.3 Changes to Alexa; Amendments. We may change, suspend, or discontinue Alexa, or any part of it, including any Third Party Services or Premium Features, at any time without notice. We may amend any of this Agreement's terms at our sole discretion by posting the revised terms on the Amazon.com website. Your continued use of Alexa after the effective date of the revised Agreement constitutes your acceptance of the terms.

Why'd you agree to that if you're so adamantly opposed to that? That's the question I'd ask you on the stand! I'd love to hear the answer that says Amazon is wrong, not us.

Then they need to charge a price for the devices that is profitable for them, or only sell the devices with a monthly/yearly subscription.

You can't sell something, and then back door sneak things in to monetize it. Well you CAN unfortunately since this is a largely unregulated area, but you shouldn't. And I'm always going to vote against it when given the option unless I'm getting something out of it personally (and I'm not in the case of Sidewalk).

I'm not doing that at all. They chose to sell the device with no subscription or monthly fee thinking they could monetize sufficiently based on the data the device provides to them. I understand that, and am not arguing it.

I am arguing them now adding in a NEW default requirement, after the device is sold and in place, to re-use my internet for their purposes. I don't agree with that.

That's their problem, not mine. If they can't convince people to use their platform without trickery, that's on them.

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Anywho, I’m out now. It is what it is!

Yup, and mine is happily turned off. So as long as it stays turned off, I'm good. No problem to solve here.

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This is where contract law takes over. without notification of a change there is no agreement The entire purpose of a contract is specified terms, No court would allow Amazon to come confiscate my truck to deliver their packages solely because they changed their terms and I kept using their Alexa.

I'm glad this is in the lounge, since it is off topic and I'm gong to contribute to that.

Also, no need to point this out - I'm admittedly not a law expert.

But I like this example - it made me think. The issue with the example is Amazon never had access to your truck in the first place. And taking your truck deprives your use of it and causes you monetary harm by it's depreciation. You could argue some people have data caps on their internet, and/or pay by usage - which I think does matter, even if the usage is miniscule.

But I put another hypothetical example, less bold, more questionable.

What if the smart curtains and blinds I've bought that come with solar panels, somehow (not technically possible, but it's a hypothetical) changed their terms after I bought the device that now any overage of sun would be fed back into the grid and the company would get the monetary benefit.

Am I harmed by it - maybe a small amount, the device is blocking my window a bit causing me a bit of lack of sun - but no direct financial harm as I already have free/unlimited sun. But now because they've decided to change their terms and I've failed to actively opt out - do they have the right to make money off the sun hitting my window when they didn't originally?

Obviously after reading the above you know my opinion. But I'm honestly interested in other people's opinions.

Right or wrong this really isn't anything new in the technology world. Xfinity/Comcast has been sharing their customer's bandwidth for years.

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Cox has been doing this too. The only way to prevent it is to use your own modem.

If you have any Ring devices you will need to opt of that as well... different then Alexa app.

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And remember that the Apple "Find My" network is doing some of the same things as Sidewalk using similar techniques.

The biggest abusers of location privacy information is your cell phone company. The biggest abuser of your purchase information are your credit card companies.

Turning Sidewalk off or leaving it on is NBD, no matter one's choice. IMO, of course.