Am I crazy? Do I NEED switches/dimmers in a new build?

Ok, been casually messing with HE and automation in general for a few years now. Just the basics, but I think I have some of it *mostly figured out.

We are in the way to early stages of building a home and I keep wondering why I would have switches installed? If a circuit has only smart lights on it, and I have a handful of picos, why do I need an ugly wall switch? Sure, they will be handy in the lesser used areas of the house, but in the core, do I NEED switches?

I have also run into a use case in my home where I needed to have separate control of two groups of can lights that were wired in series. I bypassed the switch, used a Hue zigbee light in the first "zone" and wired a Fibaro rheostat (FGD-212) in the wiring cavity of the first can of the second "zone". (yes I could also just use all smart bulbs, but the second zone was 4" cans and quite a few)
Now a Pico controls both zones, separately, and the switch is just a hole in the wall.

So back the the issue at hand, am I crazy?

Only reasons I can think of is for resale - new owner may like switches, and what does the electrical code say about this? Might be a requirement to have switches, might not.

3 Likes

I agree with @Slate , ask your inspectors, but I'm fairly sure switches will be required in certain areas. An exterior door, entering into a room, etc. If the automations fail, someone could be stumbling a cross a dark house trying to find your hidden switches. I doubt the NEC would allow for that. They view everything from a safety point of view.

If you're asking about this question to the extent that you're wondering if you should even install boxes for a switch in the first place, then I'd still do that: code in your area likely requires a switch (for a fixture or sometimes outlet) in most habitable rooms, though some have exceptions for sensor-controlled lighting. Having this in place would let you install those when needed, like if you're selling the house, as mentioned above.

But beyond that, if you want to put a Pico there and not have a physical switch, there's probably nothing wrong with that (though technically you may also want to check local code). The biggest problem you may have is that if you ever need to reset your smart bulbs and don't have another way (e.g., Zigbee TouchLink remote), then you might be stick flipping a breaker to make it happen instead of using a switch (many bulbs have a "turn on/off this many times in this pattern" sequence to reset).

1 Like

In theory its a "forever home", but who knows.

I had not fully thought of the NEC and other requirements. Maybe the middle ground would be fewer switches, and think of them as local circuit breakers.

So when you die, it will be torn down? :rofl:

2 Likes

Does everyone in your family feel the same way?

Any frequent visitors or potential long term houseguests to think about?

yes :smile:. Switches just work. If your network or HA controllers go down because of component failure, your house becomes a brick (no pun intended), unless you start thinking of things like redundancy and failover switching.

2 Likes

It may be a forever home, but it's unlikely that whatever lighting tech you install will be forever technology. Not a bad thing to keep in mind.

Do whatever you want and the code officials will allow, but one thing to keep in mind is that there can be a point when you pass "unconventional" and hit "impractical". BS crazy is further down that path and bothers others more than you, but the point where one passes these mileposts is rather subjective. Good luck with your journey, as far as you wish to take it.

Just as a vote (you asked): If it were me, I'd put in switches and dimmers.

3 Likes

For sure go with switches. Many brands that work and look like regular switches. Asthestitics should not be an issue. And since starting from scratch go with zigbee for the group messaging.

My rule of thumb is bulbs need to be reserved for color and lamps on a non switched outlet.

As someone who built new a few years ago and then went down the home automation rabbit hole, here is what I would do differently:

  • I would think ahead of time about which lights should be on smart switches and install those from the beginning. That way, I would avoid having to figure out later how the electrician wired things.
  • I would use controllable bulbs only where I would actually utilize the color changing or temperature changing feature. Otherwise, I would put a conventional LED bulb on a smart switch or smart dimmer switch. In my experience, there are only a couple places where the smart bulbs are preferable.
  • I would make sure the electrical boxes are deep. Smart switches are deeper than regular ones.
  • I would use way fewer switches, but not eliminate them. Where I decided to use smart bulbs, I would put a lot of lights on a single switch with the plan to leave the switch on most of the time.
  • I would not use any 3-way (or more) switches.
  • I would place switches differently. Conventionally, the thought process is "where would someone wanting to turn the lights on or off look for a switch?" However, if you don't want people using the switches, you need to think just the opposite. Put your picos in the place people would tend to look and put the switch in a place that is less logical to others than that.

True panelized lighting systems are generally not very DIY friendly. Two of the more mainstream ones are Lutron Homeworks and Control4. You can approximate a panelized system with Lutron RadioRA 2 system. You would have a single seeTouch keypad in a location and the individual dimmers/switches would all be hidden in a closet, either in the room or a centralized location.

Generally, homes will have two types of lighting: hardwired lights in the ceiling, on a wall, or perhaps a chandelier. Some may even be outdoor. I have replaced nearly all of those switches with Lutron Caseta dimmers. They can be controlled by the Caseta Pro hub within Hubitat. Since these are dimmers, I have to make sure I am using dimmable bulbs in each of these fixtures.

The nice thing about Caseta is that the light switches continue to function even if your hub or Internet connection fails. Thus, you can always turn your lights on manually as long as you have power. However, I think some of the other systems will do that as well.

My laundry room and kitchen had 4-ft long fluorescent fixtures which I switched over to LED. However, unless the LEDs are dimmable, you cannot use dimmers. Thus, I am using Lutron switches rather than dimmers for those fixtures. There are seldom instances in which I would want to dim those lights anyway.

I do not know how your new home will be wired, but if there are any rooms with switched sockets designed for lamps rather than permanently wired fixtures, it is best not to put a dimmer in the wall. If someone messes up and plugs something other than a lamp with a dimmable bulb into the socket (a computer perhaps), then things could get ugly. Thus, if you plan on using any lamps such as a desk lamp, bedside lamp, etc, it is best for those lamps either to be controlled by a plugin outlet, dimmer, or use of WiFi controlled bulbs in the lamps. I use a combination of Hue bulbs and Lutron plugin dimmers for that purpose. The Lutron dimmers are used for pole lamps that have multiple bulbs, so the cost of multiple bulbs and the cost of the dimmer were comparable.

There are a few places where automated lights might be a bad idea. The bathroom is one such place. If you are taking a shower or are shaving and the lights turn off automatically and leave you in the dark, that might be a safety issue. Those lights are best hardwired whether switch or dimmer in the wall.

Thus, think carefully about each room and how you will want the lights to function and plan accordingly. Also leave enough flexibility that you can change things 5, 10 or 20 years down the road as technology evolves.

I had a Smartthings hub and an original Lutron controller. Now a few years later, I find that Smartthings is on the way out and my old Lutron hub won't work with Hubitat. So make sure you get things that will still allow you to turn your lights on and off if a system goes belly-up as many have. If Lutron quits working, I can always reinstall toggle switches in my switch boxes. Always have a backup plan. Over the life of the home, it is almost certain you will need it.

Thanks for all the replies and thinking points!

@Slate I'll be dead! They can do whatever!!! I do get your point, and I guess I will consider what someone else may want...reluctantly

@marktheknife Only the wife to worry about, and she rarely uses the switches that I have on voice control. I'm pretty sure she would not be able to guess what switch controls what light

@reid.a.baldwin all good considerations. I think your last point of "hiding" switches may be a good middle ground.

I think I can/will take a step back off the ledge and concede that in fact "yes I do need switches".

1 Like

I went with all smart switches and dumb bulbs, giving the best of both worlds. The switches work mechanically even if the hub fails. Also in a medical emergency or other emergency where a first responder would need to enter, they need standard and familiar lighting control. Not likely but if something bad happens seconds could count.

If someone hate you playing trick with a 2.4GHz and 900MHz jammer (and yes I tried the 900MHz one which I used to use for mobile development, all Z-Wave down).
I won't rely everything on wireless.

Totally agree with @reid.a.baldwin on all points. I bought a 20 y/o home with 3-way switches on nearly every single light. Some of them are less than 10ft apart! I have the entire first floor switched over to Zooz switches so far and its great. Some of the boxes were quite tight and some of the locations are not so ideal but it is what it is at this point. Can still toggle the switches if you want (especially handy for guests), or use voice control or automations.

I did the switch route because it seemed to be much more cost effective that having all smart bulbs. I agree I would only use the smart bulbs when I want color changing or in a fixture that cannot easily be connected to a smart switch.