Alternatives to using ST presence

Glad to hear the good news! I appreciate you testing the multiple geofence locations and reporting back.

It actually seems to work pretty well! I don't notice any battery drain on the iphones and setting up some simple RM apps to notify whomever I want to notify works well. In ST you couldn't pick who could get the notifications.

Here is my list of methods I have seen people use to achieve Presence Detection with Hubitat. This might help you if you'd like to create something new. Options are a good thing! :slight_smile:

https://community.hubitat.com/t/alexa-phone-app-is-getting-geofencing-another-mobile-presence-option-for-hubitat/6938/28?u=ogiewon

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Hehe. I see that I'm treading on well-worn paths. I can also add to your list the Nest Presence service, if you happen to have Nest thermostats.

For my own personal use, the nest one is fine, or I can (currently) pull from the ST presence service. The only real reason I waded in at all was the whole 'local vs cloud' debate - and I'm quite enjoying having to digest fewer 3rd party services at the moment.

-- Jules

@ogiewon I submit for healthy debate that the list really has two categories; Location (Geolocation) and Presence (two devices connecting in a local short-range network)

In my mind, I’ve always categorized Geolocation as anything cellular based that has a minimum range of 400ft (Because that’s the lowest detection range I’ve seen for something cellular based), and call Location for shorthand, as do the phone manufacturers.

For anything Zigbee, Bluetooth or WiFi, I have always considered it to be Presence because it uses short distance radio waves that only indicate a users presence when a device connects to a local transmitter or mesh network, not via triangulation.

I do not consider anything the detects a user motion to be presence detection, because the object or person must continue to move for detection to remain active.

How does everyone else see this distinction, or do you? I think it's important, at least in creating automations, that there is some kind of understanding and distinction of the two types, how they react and how they should be used together. Otherwise we start wondering things like "Why did [all] my lights suddenly turn on" when our phones or devices briefly lose and regain the local connection that is triggering presence.

Oh, and to add to that nice list you created, there are two types of IFTTT detection. One is Geolocation using triangulation of your phone to the cell towers, and the other is and IFTTT trigger when your phone connects or disconnects from supported WiFI devices. This is what I use for "Presence" with our phones and my TP-Link Deco M5 mesh WiFi.

Also, just to confirm, I'm one of the users that has the Homebridge/HomeKit "Location" service working with HE. Requirements are a node.js server to run Homebridge, an iOS device obviously, and either an Apple TV 4 or later, or an always on iPad that can run the latest iOS. I think @csteele is also using this method if I'm not mistaken.

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This list does help but unfortunately most of these options require the use of IOS, which I do not use or another hub running like ST. The virtual presence switch is probably something I will look into. I do have Iris Fobs as presence which are in both cars, but I am finding there can be long delays, sometimes even minutes until it reconnects to HE. This is even with the garage being under the house and a Iris Plug directly above the garage to repeat the signal.

The problem with any WiFi or Zigbee/Z-wave solution is you generally need to be very close to the house before it will work. I have light that turn on at night based on presence and by the time these devices would trigger the light its too late.

I tried this myself, and it's a shame there's apparently no way to make it work without turning on the entire "Share My Location" feature (also used for Find My Friends and whatnot). I'd rather just give the Home app "Always" access to my location like Reminders and other apps where background location is useful can do and have that be the "trigger." I appreciate reading about options you and a couple others have posted about--I thought this was going to be the one (low battery consumption, native to the OS), but I guess I'll have to read about the other options again. This makes them easy to find, at least. :slight_smile:

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Maybe an external WiFi AP may be the only way to get the signal far enough, but even then it depends on a lot of factors.

I think the biggest problem is not presence itself, its reliable detection, even with Life360 sometimes it does not work for various reasons.

Yea I feel like an iOS expert but struggled with getting this working. Maybe that was my problem.
I don't want that noise enabled...

Yep, I struggled too until I read Apple's instructions: Create scenes and automations - Apple Support

Unlike regular location access, the Home app won't prompt you to enable this feature if it it isn't already. The location-based automation just won't work.

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Is that true? I am using iOS for presence and it's been perfect for a couple years now, ST last year and Hubitat this year... both via Homebridge.

In iOS Settings: Privacy:Location Services:Share My Location:
That section is setting which device that has your name/ID attached, will be authoritative as you. Which device do you consider "yours" vs a family member that is also using your Apple ID. It allows you to set which

Also in iOS Settings: Privacy:Location Services: is a list of apps that would love to use your location. Me, I turn them all off (never) except a few set to "While using" -- none of mine are set to Always. The Home app is in the list and it's set to "while using the app" and it's interesting to note that Apple does not offer the Aways option for this app. Maps are also set to "while using" because of course they don't work well without.

In other words, I'm interpreting "Share My Location" differently.

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Just looking at my ping logs from last night. Each of our phones was offline at one point for at least 10 minutes. The range was from seconds to 10 minutes when pinging every 5 seconds.

This is on an iphone 7+ and 8+.

Been doing this a long time. It sucks that my system won't arm until I'm gone for at least 15 minutes, but its nice that its instant when I arrive home.

I just think "there must be a better way"
Now play this in your mind with Kevin O'leary voice:)

Hmmm? - Only 2 of the 11 options I listed are iOS only (Locative and Homekit). Only 1 requires ST.

I will say that my combination of HomeKit location and WiFi presence always works, but there is a speed lag sometimes when my phone doesn't connect to WiFi right away. I'm using an iPhone 6, so maybe the slower processor or outdated WiFi components are the issue. I'm just at the front door entering the code before it connect to WiFi on occasion. Other times, I'm not up my walk yet and the door unlocks.

Wondering that too. I turned most of this off for the screen shot here, but it looks to me like you could just enable HomeKit if you wanted.

You can go much smaller than 400ft with Geolocation. A good system also allows multiple geofence methods not just a circle. It depends on the device being used. Even with some cell phones you can go very small...

https://forums.simplextech.net/threads/how-to-use-in-homeseer.11/post-16

One user in testing setup a 10ft geofence inside their home. It worked. YMMV as always.

The locations that are available to the average consumer without a fee are huge though. I don't know even a fraction of what you know about the subject, so I have no understanding of how you're doing that. If the title means I have to setup Homeseer, well that's not going to happen here.

Most that I can easily hook into other services are around 900 feet in circumference. This is why I use a primary location trigger and a secondary WiFi presence trigger for accuracy and protection against false positives.

I mean this in the most constructive and non-judgmental way, but the stuff you're doing I really don't understand. The options are very confusing, or maybe I just being thick about it.

I think you, Apple, and me are all in agreement as to what "Share My Location" means. Here's what the screen looks like in the place where Apple says to enable this feature to allow location-based HomeKit automations to work:

This would be the first feature you mentioned. I'd rather not do that just for HomeKit, which is why I meant that I wish there was a way to just allow access for Home/HomeKit without everything else "Share My Location" includes. As you can see in the screenshot, "Share your location with family and friends in Messages and Find My Friends..."--no thanks. :slight_smile: (This kind of makes sense for "guest"-type users of HomeKit who need location-based automations, but this is all set up just for me on my account and devices.) In other words, I wished it worked the second way you mentioned. I also don't like "Always" and only use "While using the app" when needed, but I'd make an exception for Home/HomeKit if I could.

You can't. Or rather, you can (as you can clearly see in your screenshot), but it's not the issue at hand. I have that enabled, and the location-based automations still don't work. It must be the "Share My Location" feature Apple mentions in their support document above. Again, I wish there was a better way since this otherwise seems like a good option. :confused:

But you have no one showing in that area.

"People who can see your location will appear here." And you have no one. You enable that and you're sharing with zero.