A call for solidarity and support

Why Hubitat Elevation Local Control
81

I have never owned a hub of any kind before. But I've been looking at one of these, mainly for the wide compatibility. Up until now, my attitude has been, I'm not buying any smart home devices that don't run on WiFi. I'm running a Ubiquiti home network with ceiling mounted APs and the reach of my WiFi is very good throughout the house.

I realize now though that WiFi is pretty limiting for things that aren't plugged into power. Sometimes there are hybrid solutions, like with the Wyze sensor you have a dongle that plugs into the back of the Wyzecam but that runs who knows what protocol on the back side of the dongle? And the hybrid solutions seem to be rife for vendor non-interoperability. So I started looking at hubs but found a lot of devices only work with certain hubs, or the same hub as the device manufacturer. Some of the manufacturer hubs are really cheap like less than $30 but they're also extremely limiting as they only work with that manufacturer's devices. I don't want 5 hubs in my wiring panel.

Searching for hubs with wide compatibility brought me here. As far as I can tell this hub works with the highest amount of devices that any I can find. But I have some reservations too. I'm an IT network engineer so I'm probably ahead of most when it comes to setting up something that is technically challenging. But, I want my completely non-technical wife to be able to easily use and understand the smart home automation as well. Rules that involve non-GUI actions are really a non-starter for her.

I saw the rule above "If any contact sensor opens", and then the select statements. For simple actions can this be done through a GUI? I understand the need to dig deeper for a complex rule, I just don't want my wife to have to go there to do something.

People here seem to sign the praises of the local automation. But for me it's kind of meh. I'm the cloud guy at work, the person who's always pushing cloud solutions to everything. Performance wise, I find that actions that I currently have in Google Home or Wyze or Geeni, etc, don't take an inordinate amount of time to execute after a voice command to my Google Minis. I have my modem, router, PoE switch (and by extension my PoE powered APs) on a largish UPS. Security wise, I don't really see cloud as being that different from on-premise. If your security stinks in the cloud, it's probably going to stink on-premise as well. Strong encryption with best available cipher suites, MFA, complex passwords, and IP source/destination restrictions should be standard practice whether a widget is in the cloud or on-premise.

But yeah did I mention the widest possible compatibility? That in of itself makes the $129 worth it to me versus say a SmartThings. Plus Samsung makes me crazy. I swore after having a Galaxy SIII and two Notes, a 4 and a 5, that I would never buy a Samsung device again. Then my carrier started giving a free 18 month lease on the Galaxy S10, so that's what I have now. Things have gotten much better since the Note 5 days, but it still has proprietary software that makes me crazy. For example Samsung Pay. I'm not going to use any service that locks me into buying Samsung phones. Or the Bixby button. This thing has a physical Bixby button. I want to pry it out and burn it, but I have to give them this phone back at the end of 18 months so that's not really an option, nor is a custom ROM, unless I am really sure I can get back to stock.

And the community here is great, as others have mentioned.

1 Like
82

Sorry for an unexaustive answer but although I'm in a hurry and I could not restrain...
The security is just part of the matter. The local also protects you from network fault (both by operators as hub vendors). As cloud man you know what I speak about.
About the rest... He covers mostly of your points. With a question mark about WAF and the easy use by not power user at least...

1 Like
83

One large difference between Hubitat and ALL of the other hubs I've tried this lifetime, so far, is the conscientious decision to NOT combine Admin with User.

Admin is the creation of... the creation of Automations, the creation of (add) devices, the creation of user access to the creations. :smiley:

If you buy a new device, ZWave, Zigbee, WiFi... who's going to add that to the Hub and get it working, then integrate it into the home's automation? It's got to be extremely rare that it's done 'by committee' within a home.

User activity is often thought of as Dashboard type interactions. And there are many forms of Dashboard available. However, it must be pointed out that zero user interaction is the target for many. There's an 'arc of use' with Home Automation... it usually starts with WiFi :slight_smile: and having what really must be called "Remote Control" of that device. It's a switch or a plug that you can control via a Phone App. Cool... boring :smiley: Having to dig around for the remote control is an old joke in the TV world, why would it be any different in the Home Automation world? Soon a contact or motion sensor is introduced and the idea of 'hands off' automation begins.

Many people in the Home Automation world intend to go years without pushing a button, flipping a switch, or touching a dashboard. I'm one. My family is too. There's a big exception these days around Bedroom automations but for me, everything else about the house is as fully automatic as I can make it. In every room, at all times of the day, the room detects us and sets itself to match our comfort requirements.

All of the above predicates local reaction. Cloud can't participate. Internet outage is rare, but not nonexistent. Cloud service outages are rare, but not nonexistent. I do have internet/cloud devices integrated. I acquire weather info via the cloud. I also have Amazon Echo devices, I have Google Home devices, I have Apple devices.

Voice is used rarely by my family. I think they'd use it more if the Automation was less complete. It's used mostly to impress visitors.

Weather is used to add nuance to existing automations.. for example I have a "gloomy day" virtual switch that is set/reset by weather.

So.. back to your early question...

Yes, that's the Dashboard feature and as I said, there's a lot of choice there.

4 Likes
84

Well, the security issue is stated as one of the primary benefits, but I don't think it's that big of a benefit. I mean it literally says "Your data should be kept securely at home, where it belongs." on your company's core value page, (link to page disallowed by forum policy) To me that is marketing to uninformed people, not an actual benefit.

My opinion based on working with security issues in a corporate environment every week, I really think people underestimate the insecurity of their weakly secured home networks, and devices contained therein. As an example, how many people have old Turbo Tax returns sitting around on their unsupported or unpatched Windows machines? Hack their WiFi, find an unpatched Windows vulnerability that enables remote privilege elevation, find the aforementioned TurboTax or an excel file....boom. You can glean enough information from there to steal their identity. Not that I would ever do this, but it's important to understand what is possible if one is to secure their assets.

$0.02.

The network disconnection issue is real, but, you can at least minimize downtime from power outages and sags by putting all your stuff on a UPS with enough capacity to run your network infrastructure for 15 minutes. True Internet outages where I live are not very frequent. If you live somewhere where terrestrial Internet connections are less reliable, then this is probably a bigger issue. I have my choice of either fiber to the outside demarc on the house house from the cable provider, or fiber to my structured wiring panel in the house from the telcom provider. I've had both and they are extremely reliable when paired with a UPS. YMMV, of course.

85

In general I would agree with you but there are cases where cloud services pose some risks that may or may not be acceptable.

In my case I came here from the Wink platform. It did a lot of local processing as well. On that system I setup several exterior lights and some motion sensors to work as security lighting. This worked great except I found that if I was working outside the motion sensors would fight each other. Motion sensor 1 would trigger and then I would move to zone 2. While I was in zone 2 the first sensor would go inactive and turn off the lights.

To solve this I found Stringify, a 3rd party cloud service that allowed you to write more complex rules than Wink's robots. This allowed me to create a flow that turned the lights on if any of the sensors triggered and not turn them off until all sensors cleared. Life was good.

Then I was out of town for two weeks. A week into my trip the fiber transceiver locked up and the house lost internet. This had never happened before and has never happened since. Stringify was a cloud based service so for the second week I was away I had no security lighting. This was unacceptable and my research brought me to Hubitat.

While many things can be shrugged off if the cloud service is unreachable there are a few critical operations that can not. It isn't a huge showstopper but something that isn't always considered.

That security lighting use case has now evolved into a few hundred lines of custom app code but that's another story. :wink:

2 Likes
86

With local automation your devices will continue to work over the long haul. With cloud supported devices you are at the mercy of the company providing such services and the internet connection itself. Not saying such services aren't useful they are/can be but their long term viability and cost is questionable. Also what about data collection and privacy issues?

I generally prefer such stuff be kept at the edge of my systems rather than making them a core part.

2 Likes
87

I've never been an ST user, but here around many users come from there. Ask them about ST server downs, leaving you off your house...

Even more, hacking a local HE based on radio devices is not as easy as hacking an ip based automation network. I have many ip based devices (shelly and others) directly controlled by HE that some time let me fell naked...

88

Thanks csteele, good points. Mainly what I want to do so far is lights, cameras and motion sensors, but I imagine my use case will expand with time, and maybe with seeing what people are doing on here. This is a great forum.

I have seen some of the posts for example about using their home automation to do security and that's something I'd like to get into. I have some of the pieces now, but they don't work together.

89

Ok so here's something that I would want to do. I would like a physical switch that looks like a Decora to turn on my Geeni undercounter lights, because I can't really think of a way that I would want to automate it. This would be for guests and family members, and also because the builder wanted $1300 for freaking undercounter lighting that wasn't smart, I want to put a switch right where the builder would have.

There is no power at this location and while I could run power if I fished it up to the attic from another location and then back down where the switch would be, who wants to do all that, especially when it's 97 degrees outside?

You would think it would be easy to find a completely wireless smart switch that looked exactly like a Decora but it seems to be not so. I found lots of buttons and so forth but I want something that looks exactly like a Decora switch. I did find the GoConex one but it looks like it's RF, and doesn't integrate with anything. Finally found one on Amazon but it said it was only for Phillips Hue. It's a RunLessWire Wireless Dimmer Light Switch, Compatible with Philips Hue Lights (White), found it on Amazon. (The forum will not let me post a link, maybe because I am new)

Can I pair this device to a Hubitat and do stuff with it? Or for that matter any other device that says it's Hue compatible.

I'm thinking I might need to get a different brand LED strip because I don't see any Geeni devices in the compatibility list, but that would be OK, I'm not in love with the Geeni because the soft white setting is more like 4000-4500K when I want soft white 2700K.

90

These, like many wifi devices, probably don't have a good local integration possible. They do however have a local integration with HE if you change the firmware to Tasmota:

1 Like
91

look at the lutron Pico. They are a decora style remote and there is a mounting plate that fits a standard electrtrical outlet...or just mount to the wall Try can use button controller or advanced button controller to link to a light strip. only down side is you need a lutron bridge which runs for about a hundred dollars to do the integration. But can almost guarantee that once you put the bridge in...you'll find other reasons to add more Picos. I have about 5 picos around the house that control LED strips,.love them.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00KLAXOE8/ref=sr_1_11?dchild=1&keywords=lutron+pico&qid=1595641025&sr=8-11

https://www.amazon.com/Caseta-Wireless-Wallplate-Bracket-PICO-WBX-ADAPT/dp/B00JZRAFEA/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=lutron+pico&qid=1595641025&sr=8-6

there are several pico options. 2 button, 3 button, 4...etc. I configured mine where the top button is on / off, the other buttons are configured for dimming and even changing color.

3 Likes
92

Is there any logical reason to have more than 1 hub? No person on here has "too many" devices for a single hub. I ordered a new one the second it came out for the home I just purchased, and bought my parents one for their home about a year ago to replace their ST. I love Hubitat compared to ST, but see no reason that anyone has to have more than 1 for a single house with the exception of a backup in the ultra rare case your main one fails and you absolutely are unwilling to wait for 2 day Amazon shipping. Can anyone who has more than 1 explain this?

1 Like
93

I think for me, it's just a (neverending) quest for a more responsive home automation solution. I'm way way way into the rabbit hole and after I started Zniffering, I noticed odd Z-Wave routes that added to response times to automations. Sooo... now the plan is to segment Z-Wave/Zigbee devices between floors of my house.

I'm not entirely sure the ROI is going to be there, but I also wanted to support the Hubitat team. :slight_smile:

1 Like
94

Doesn't that make it more difficult? The devices on one floor can't talk to the ones on the other if they are on different hubs, right? As far as response times, it would be near impossible to measure a difference when you're talking about milliseconds. Supporting the team and the developers I'd say is a worthwhile reason though.

1 Like
95

Hubconnect can enable hubs to share devices (even with ST). However, I'm going to try to accomplish this without it. All of my automation is handled through node-red so it should be possible.

In terms of perception, you'd be surprised at how attuned your eyes are to even the smallest delays. If each hop adds delay to the round trip, those can add up and result in perceptible delays.

Motion --> sensor wakes up --> repeater --> repeater --> hub event --> rules/node-red --> hub command --> repeater --> repeater --> switch could result in over half a second of delay (or more) depending on many variables. If you're used to a traditional switch where there is ZERO delay... you're definitely going to notice that. That being said, everyone has a different satisfaction threshold for this. Mine is very low.

My personal goals were to minimize unnecessary hops and keep my automation as simple as possible while still accomplishing the task. A new hub is a step towards the first and visiting the forums is helping me with the second. :slight_smile:

Edit: forgot to mention that my satisfaction threshold is directly affected by WAF. :smiley:

96

In my case, I found that there are some apps that I really like but that slow down the Hub quite a bit. So I have 2 hubs. One for most of my apps and devices, and another for the app that impacts the hub's speed.

Also, I have started using some Xiaomi Zigbee devices that are super cheap, but not fully compliant. Running them on the 2nd hub works like a charm.

I link the hubs together with HubConnect which is totally awesome!

1 Like
97

Outside the the US it's way more than 2 days :smiley:

98

If you're sharing devices between hubs then you've defeated the entire point of trying to speed up response time and made it much worse. That is really cool though. I was not aware of that. So theoretically I can create a rule where if my parents smoke alarm goes off it sounds an alarm at my home so I know? That could be useful especially as they get older.

99

Yeah, I could understand having a backup hub for in case something happens, especially in places where it might be difficult to get a new one in a quick time frame. Somebody on here said something about having 5 hubs though. That's complete overkill and waste unless your home is 30,000 sq ft or something and at that point if you have $150MN for a house, you'd probably spend $50k to have a company come and set it up with stuff that makes our automation look like total crap.

1 Like
100

The Author of HubConnect has greater than 500 devices in his home. It's a crazy number for those of us that haven't hit 250 yet, but indeed giant installations occur.

There have been a lot of discussions about the 'value' of multiple hubs. I always begin such discussions by agreeing with you. For most people, a single hub is adequate. But that leaves a LOT of wiggle room for justifying multiple hubs. It's rather trivial to justify actually.

Cost is relatively modest. Therefore as the 'price of a solution to a real problem' makes the decision easy for most. I recognize we haven't had a sale in a while, but a hub is typically in the range of 1-2 devices.

Certainly the #1 factor in buying a second hub is that shipping time for a replacement isn't zero. and zero is all many people are willing to have their house down for. We'll have to see the impact of the Migration Tool and having a backup in the cloud and a Hub in the hand will yield.

If you do have a spare hub waiting for a failure, and the failure is as rare as they seem to be, other thoughts creep in.. like splitting the house so that a hub fail affects just half the house. I do exactly this.. I have a hub for my 'upstairs' devices and another for 'downstairs'. Each hub is as independent as I can make it. Motions often flip switches or dimmers, etc and I have ALL of that on a single hub, to the extent possible.

Time will tell if you alter your opinion of multiple hubs, but for those of us that have them, generally we've done so for a very good reason and aren't going to go back. If we have too many hubs, they seem easy to sell off to get down to the perfect quantity.

I have 6 hubs. Three of them are my primary set. I've mentioned "upstairs" and "downstairs" but the third is where all the Internet facing products reside. The few $$ spent on an additional hub to run Amazon Echo, Google Home, Weather, Dashboards and have a 'master for Modes or HSM' makes incredible sense to me, as well as being practical. We have no qualms about looking at Intel's CPU line and saying 8 cores are better than 4... yet when I do the same with Home Automation (3 hubs are better than 1) there's some flaw in the logic? Not for me. :slight_smile:

Maybe I was 'lucky' seeing many sales on Hubitat Hubs over the two years I've built my system, but it's likely I have less than $250 in Hubs which is roughly 6-10 ZWave devices. (I'm mostly a ZWave home.) The math is simple. :smiley:

2 Likes